TT Exulansic Youtube

[Fleek]

I've been watching TT Exulansic's videos on YouTube having seen a link to them on here. I have learnt so much - what she is sharing is so necessary in terms of this debate. I'm also finding them really upsetting. I'm so shocked by what I've seen and just wanted to talk about them here. If you haven't watched any yet, please do.

I have a condition which has meant having plastic surgery to make my body look more 'normal'. I've had multiple, very painful surgeries which have left me in a degree of chronic pain but ultimately, I have achieved my goal in that I now have a much more normal looking body which it is easier to go through life with. These surgeries have had a clear medical benefit beyond my appearance being changed, just to be clear. I have a medical condition which has objective markers. There is evidence having gone through these surgeries, I will now have better physical health in my old age and will be less likely to experience certain complications which the condition can end up causing so the benefits definitely aren't just cosmetic - it's just the cosmetic benefits meant a lot to me as a patient. My body was 'wrong' and that was badly affecting my mental health and so I've put myself through a lot to make it look 'right.'

So there I am with having gone through this journey and so I think watching these videos on YT feels that little bit more personal in some ways, even though I don't have gender dysphoria and my surgeries were completely different. I knew already that things like constructing a 'penis' out of someone's arm was utterly barbaric and had a high failure rate and I knew there could be complications with attempting to construct a vagina. I just had no idea how frequently there were complications and how dangerous this journey is. I suddenly have the view that it must be almost impossible to go through them safely - at the very least you are risking fissures and strictures and those can lead to serious complications. Just taking testosterone is likely to lead to heart damage, too. There are going to be so many people who go through these operations and who die prematurely because they end up with sepsis or other infections.

I just watched the latest video on Jazz. I felt sick to my stomach at that one in particular. How has this poor kid got any kind of future? Jazz is severely depressed, 150 pounds overweight, has no sexual functioning at all, has already experienced multiple surgeries and complications and is likely to experience more. It's a crime to be doing this to vulnerable young people. If Jazz hadn't had these surgeries, we'd be looking at a young man embarking on a degree at Harvard, perhaps at the beginning of a journey where he felt comfortable with his sex and his sexuality. He'd be out having fun. My surgeries were so incredibly tough but on balance, they were worth it and while I'm in pain here and there, I don't have any additional complications which will actually threaten my life. That isn't the case with trans surgeries. Surgeons are literally butchering healthy bodies. They must know they are. How have things been allowed to go in this direction? (I know the answer to that really)

@ClareCAIS

Thanks *@RVN123* the comments on some of these videos are truly vile - & the lack of empathy for a teenage girl who finds out that she was born without a uterus and with XY chromosomes, is just heartbreaking

@ClareCAIS, are you insinuating that but for the disorder, people with CAIS (or PAIS) would have developed a uterus? That is incorrect, isn't it?

I think most people can understand that it is obviously life changing event if someone finds out they have a dsd when they into their teens. Their very sense of self and expectations must alter. I don't understand how anyone would think it isn't better for those affected (and family) to discover that as early as possible. Such a view is not out of interest for the affected individual.

Can I ask you how you view that individual/advocate who did the original interview claiming they had CAIS - would you be shocked if they were falsely claiming that? Or would someone doing an interview if they were fraudulently posing as someone with CAIS be acceptable to you? Since the whole TT exulansic thing seemed to stem from comments made about that individuals airing on youtube (and this thread is about TT's youtube).

I don't know if they were stating a falsehood, but some people have made this allegation based on what they say are previous claims from the very individual involved.

I don't want to put words into ClareCAIS's mouth, but I don't think she was insinuating anything. I took it to mean that they are to all intents and purposes and as far as anyone knows, female at birth. Why wouldn't they expect themselves to have a normal internal anatomy and uterus like all other females?
I know I keep banging on about this but let me give you the reason why. I have an almost 16 year old daughter who failed to menstruate until very late (in todays terms and given that I started myself at 11). I was very worried about her because she is painfully shy and there is no way on earth she would allow me to take her to the doctors for tests or examinations. I did a little reading on the subject and came across various DSDs that had lack of menstruation as a symptom. It led me down a path to wondering what I would do if it turned out that she was a carrier of such a condition. I questioned how I would help her, how I would feel myself.
Would I suddenly consider myself the Mother of a Son and not a Daughter? Would I change her name? Would I change her pronouns? Would I suddenly ban her from using female spaces? How would I help her come to terms with the devastating impact on her fertility and future hopes?

The answer to all of these questions was a resounding NO. She would still be female in every regard, she would still be my daughter. She would be my daughter with a medical condition that we would learn how to deal with.

And it is this I see every time someone comments that these people should be lumped in with the men identifying as women.
These people never "identified" as anything, they didn't make a decision at some point that they were not a certain sex, they don't try to deny biology. They don't try to infringe on the rights of women.
It's a totally different situation.

As I said upthread, there are some Youtubers (since this thread is about them) that I have totally lost a lot of respect for. Among them are Vanessa Vokey who is being very vocal and very inflammatory in the comments section of one of the videos in support of Slightly Twisted Female and Exulansic. I regret that we appear to be disappearing down the DSD rabbit hole instead of focusing on the real issues.

Let's not forget the absolute RARITY of this condition.
Let's not forget our humanity - these are real people facing a traumatic diagnosis.

They're not males with a feeling in their heads.

@RVN123

I don't want to put words into ClareCAIS's mouth, but I don't think she was insinuating anything. I took it to mean that they are to all intents and purposes and as far as anyone knows, female at birth. Why wouldn't they expect themselves to have a normal internal anatomy and uterus like all other females? I know I keep banging on about this but let me give you the reason why. I have an almost 16 year old daughter who failed to menstruate until very late (in todays terms and given that I started myself at 11). I was very worried about her because she is painfully shy and there is no way on earth she would allow me to take her to the doctors for tests or examinations. I did a little reading on the subject and came across various DSDs that had lack of menstruation as a symptom. It led me down a path to wondering what I would do if it turned out that she was a carrier of such a condition. I questioned how I would help her, how I would feel myself. Would I suddenly consider myself the Mother of a Son and not a Daughter? Would I change her name? Would I change her pronouns? Would I suddenly ban her from using female spaces? How would I help her come to terms with the devastating impact on her fertility and future hopes?

The answer to all of these questions was a resounding NO. She would still be female in every regard, she would still be my daughter. She would be my daughter with a medical condition that we would learn how to deal with.

And it is this I see every time someone comments that these people should be lumped in with the men identifying as women.
These people never "identified" as anything, they didn't make a decision at some point that they were not a certain sex, they don't try to deny biology. They don't try to infringe on the rights of women.
It's a totally different situation.

As I said upthread, there are some Youtubers (since this thread is about them) that I have totally lost a lot of respect for. Among them are Vanessa Vokey who is being very vocal and very inflammatory in the comments section of one of the videos in support of Slightly Twisted Female and Exulansic. I regret that we appear to be disappearing down the DSD rabbit hole instead of focusing on the real issues.

Let's not forget the absolute RARITY of this condition.
Let's not forget our humanity - these are real people facing a traumatic diagnosis.

They're not males with a feeling in their heads.

Very simply resolved. Let Clare speak for herself, then, rather than launching into a stream of consciousness. My questions were short. And so would the relevant answers.

Also, if you think some videos are so reprehensible, why do you keep posting them on Mumsnet?

Eh? I posted one link to a video.
Bizarre.

My post wasn't entirely directed towards you. Last I heard this was a forum for lots of people.

I don't think @Cailleach1 - or for that matter anyone on this thread - has said anything to suggest that they support the forcible segregation of women and girls with CAIS.

Ok, maybe that was a bit curt. I apologise for being curt. However, I would just like to stick with the issue that I am addressing - not go around all the houses about other issues.

My two questions were narrow in scope. Not a general discussion on the sociological effects and implications of a dsd on the affected individual. Although those are important topics in themselves.

I think everyone can absolutely understand and sympathise with the human element in this. That is however not what I was asking. I am not asking about dsd's in general. Just really in relation to the thread title. And also, it is correct that if a person with CAIS/PAIS did not have the disorder, they would never developed a uterus, isn't it? As a simple fact, not as a loaded or subjective comment.

Also, I would be surprised if someone who may possibly be fraudulently claiming to be CAIS, and indeed an activist as such, would not be an issue. If the allegations are true.

That's utterly, utterly horrible. There are really nasty depths to the internet that are best left unpoked.

[quote ClareCAIS]@Cailleach1 a girl with CAIS who is observed & recorded as female at birth, would expect to have the exact some anatomy as any other girl - & it is a devastating loss for them to find out that they don’t have a uterus

And the person talking about CAIS has no relevance to the comments, these were generalised comments - regardless of their own history, they were advocating for nothing more than support for newly diagnosed teens - and I am more than a little shocked that this is your response to the comments I shared above.

If you want to read the issues I’ve noted about being self-identifying as ‘intersex’ I’ve written about this here - but I would never produce videos to publicly shame an individual by discussing their body in these ways, as this is a horribly cruel thing to do.

differently-normal.com/2021/10/25/the-invention-of-intersex/[/quote]
Surely one way of reducing that devastation is to ensure that people with CAIS know as early as possible? The devastation felt is (I presume - correct me if I am wrong) all about reality not meeting expectations. Given reality cannot change, then surely the only way to reduce devastation is to align expectations with reality as early as possible.

Dalea is entirely relevant - Isaac and Exulansic were posting in relation to someone who as at various times claims to have had PAIS, grown up as a boy and transitioned, and claimed to have CAIS. When faced with dishonest TRAs and dishonest transitioners it is VERY easy to show a lot of disrespect to someone who appears to be trans (if someone tells two stories I believe that other people have the right to believe the one that it suits them to believe - call it an incentive not to lie), pushing a trans agenda and lying about science. It also makes clear that whilst having a DSD is nothing to do with being trans, having a DSD doesn't mean that someone isn't dishonest and pushing a dangerous TRA agenda, and it doesn't mean they're not trans as well as having a DSD.

I can understand your anger and frustration and distress at Isaac and Exulansic. I hope they do better. I don't like whataboutery, but surely challenging TRAs and fighting for the specific rights and needs of people with DSDs are much more important than yur comments on this thread (to be fair I am sure you have spent infinitely more time in the past challenging TRAs and fighting for DSD rights, not challenging GC people).

"I would never produce videos to publicly shame an individual by discussing their body in these ways" - you may think that is a good thing, but I believe that standing up to bullies and liars and those pushing a dangerous agenda is a VERY GOOD THING, and if they are the ones who bring their own bodies - dishonestly - into the debate then they have whatever comes coming IMHO.

I cannot argue with someone who says "we need to be able to define woman in a simple and provable way and that way is a simple XX".

I also cannot argue with you when you point out that telling someone they are a boy when neither they nor anyone else had the slightest suspicion that they weren't a typical, normal girl.

I am going to use the comments to try to encourage greater compassion from Isaac and Exulansic. It is probably unreasonable of me to ask this, but how about you show some compassion to people who are trying their best to get to a scientific truth and to protect the rights of women, and who weren't the ones to bring you into this mess?

How do you think that women can erect clear and clearly defined boundaries around womanhood to keep out men whilst treating people with CAIS with the compassion and respect that you deserve?

If an answer could not be found and it really was a choice between "everyone is entitled to women's spaces" and "only XX are entitled to women's spaces" which would you support?

@ClareCAIS

I answered the questions above - and I am still shocked that this was your response to the comment that I posted. Do you really believe it is OK to advocate for babies to be tested for CAIS, so that they can be labelled as disabled men and segregated from both male and female spaces?

If you are in support of this comment, I really am horrified

"Do you really believe it is OK to advocate for babies to be tested for CAIS?" I cannot see the harm in diagnosing health conditions ASAP

"so that they can be labelled as disabled" - syndrome would undoutedly be better, but given that someone with CAIS is unable to do certain things that other people can do then the term is not utterly outrageous.

"so that they can be labelled as men" - I think Isaac and Exulansic should be kinder and more compassionate, but I have massive amounts of sympathy for people who define men as male and male as XY.

"segregated from both male and female spaces?" The segregation was from female spaces in the context of a debate where lots of men / males / XY are gaslighting women and stealing their rights. This is relevant. Exulansic was not advocating segregation from men rather that excluding everyone with male chromosomes from female spaces does not mean chucking people with CAIS into the men's changing rooms, it means coming up with facilities for them for their comfort and privacy.

I do not support Exulansic's comment, but I don;t think it is anywhere near as outrageous as you do.

I am horrified by the comments you linked to above.

I am also horrified that Exulansic has been deplatformed by, as far as I can tell, a bunch of angry men*. Particularly as, as far as I can tell, the appalling comments you have linked to above are not by her.

(*No, I am not referring to women with CAIS here.)

[quote ClareCAIS]@Cailleach1 of course if I had functioning androgen receptors my embryological development would have been very different

These are the more recent comments I’ve been receiving on these videos[/quote]
In a world where no man used lies or deceit or was disingenuous in order to access women's spaces and destroy women's rights I would be saying "obviously you are a woman and your explanation is fine".

But in the real world as it is now we need to be 100% clear. You were being very disingenuous, the truth is "if I had functioning androgen receptors my embryological development would have been a normal male development as determined by my male chromosomes and I would be a normal healthy man today."

Science and facts don't respect feelings, and neither does open and honest debate, much needed open and honest debate.

I don't believe that obscuring the truth is a long term solution to anything, not least when the problem is that you are at risk of losing the women only spaces that you currently enjoy if the people who hate scientific truth get their way. The solution is facts, science, logic, reason and compassion, and using those things I am sure that a definition of woman can be found that is basically "XX" but does not exclude you.

[quote ClareCAIS]@NotMyGenderGoblin I am pretty shocked that this is your response to those comments - and I’m not really sure what to say, especially about showing compassion - I am finding this increasingly bizarre that people are not horrified by these comments[/quote]
We're not going to agree entirely so there is no point, but I'd love to know what is shocking about diagnosing health conditions as early as possible?

What is shocking about my suggestion that syndrome would be better but that disability has an element of truth in it and is not totally outrageous?

What is shocking about defining woman as XX?

What is shocking about using the above definition of woman to determine access to women's spaces?

I respect your right to disagree, and I am in no way saying woman = XX, CAIS should not be in women's spaces, but what I have said is really not shocking IMHO, OTHER than in the context of you wanting a discussion which prioritises your feelings over honest debate.

One more thing before I try to leave this thread for a while. I am trying to work out why I find your posts so triggering @ClareCAIS.

I think it comes down to two things - so much of what you are doing (being disingenuous, arguing for some XY people to be in women's spaces) is straight out of the TTA playbook, though obviously you are coming at it from a completely different, and infinitely more reasonable angle.

Secondly I genuinely want the best for as many people as possible, whilst not ignoring minorities either. I don't like seeing Exulansic attacked - however justified - when she has the potential to save tens of thousand of women from sterilization and cosmetic breast amputation.

I don't want the testing of babies that you describe, @ClareCAIS and I'm sorry for the upset this is causing. I see your point of view.

I also wonder whether your ire is misdirected - the problem isn't really TT or the people who commented on her video, the reach of that is very small. I'm not meaning to dismiss your upset, but, TT is not hugely influential outwith the circles of people who are already in this stuff. Most people will never have heard of her and will never seek her work out now it's in the bowel of NotYouTube.

The real problem, I think but am obviously making assumptions, is that TRAs have co-opted DSDs, are calling them by an outdated term and USING your community to further their own agenda.

So, I feel torn by this, I understand why you are upset and I see your point. But, the TRAs are using your group to remove the rights of my group.

You're not the problem, I'm not the problem - the remarkably talented lobbyists who engineer half truths into society and legislation, and then create a fight between two groups who are both being harmed by the TRA - it is them who is the problem.