TT Exulansic Youtube

[Fleek]

I've been watching TT Exulansic's videos on YouTube having seen a link to them on here. I have learnt so much - what she is sharing is so necessary in terms of this debate. I'm also finding them really upsetting. I'm so shocked by what I've seen and just wanted to talk about them here. If you haven't watched any yet, please do.

I have a condition which has meant having plastic surgery to make my body look more 'normal'. I've had multiple, very painful surgeries which have left me in a degree of chronic pain but ultimately, I have achieved my goal in that I now have a much more normal looking body which it is easier to go through life with. These surgeries have had a clear medical benefit beyond my appearance being changed, just to be clear. I have a medical condition which has objective markers. There is evidence having gone through these surgeries, I will now have better physical health in my old age and will be less likely to experience certain complications which the condition can end up causing so the benefits definitely aren't just cosmetic - it's just the cosmetic benefits meant a lot to me as a patient. My body was 'wrong' and that was badly affecting my mental health and so I've put myself through a lot to make it look 'right.'

So there I am with having gone through this journey and so I think watching these videos on YT feels that little bit more personal in some ways, even though I don't have gender dysphoria and my surgeries were completely different. I knew already that things like constructing a 'penis' out of someone's arm was utterly barbaric and had a high failure rate and I knew there could be complications with attempting to construct a vagina. I just had no idea how frequently there were complications and how dangerous this journey is. I suddenly have the view that it must be almost impossible to go through them safely - at the very least you are risking fissures and strictures and those can lead to serious complications. Just taking testosterone is likely to lead to heart damage, too. There are going to be so many people who go through these operations and who die prematurely because they end up with sepsis or other infections.

I just watched the latest video on Jazz. I felt sick to my stomach at that one in particular. How has this poor kid got any kind of future? Jazz is severely depressed, 150 pounds overweight, has no sexual functioning at all, has already experienced multiple surgeries and complications and is likely to experience more. It's a crime to be doing this to vulnerable young people. If Jazz hadn't had these surgeries, we'd be looking at a young man embarking on a degree at Harvard, perhaps at the beginning of a journey where he felt comfortable with his sex and his sexuality. He'd be out having fun. My surgeries were so incredibly tough but on balance, they were worth it and while I'm in pain here and there, I don't have any additional complications which will actually threaten my life. That isn't the case with trans surgeries. Surgeons are literally butchering healthy bodies. They must know they are. How have things been allowed to go in this direction? (I know the answer to that really)

@ClareCAIS I think my point is that if someone's indistinguishable from any other woman (I don't generally go around checking the size of my friends' clitorises) then I couldn't give a monkeys precisely what her underlying diagnosis is.

If someone's physical appearance is such that they were assigned male at birth then, almost by definition, they're not indistinguishable from any other female. And I care. How much I care depends very much on how male they look. But I'm prepared to turn a blind eye because I appreciate this is complex and sensitive.

If it helps, Georgina Somerset was a friend of the family, so I have got changed in the same space as a woman with DSD, albeit not CAIS, and I was admittedly in nappies at the time.

If someone has been brought up as male I care more. If they then lie about having been brought up male, then that puts them in the threat til proven otherwise category.

For clarity, I have no idea which of those three categories Dalea falls into.

I think this whole scenario is the reason why DSDs should be left out of the equation when we are talking about protecting women's spaces.

We all know that the VAST VAST VAST majority of the problem comes from men (biological XY men with 'normal' biological male bodies) who are trying to use any excuse under the sun to identify into women's spaces.

We always say to those people (TW and TRAs alike) that DSDs are so vanishingly rare that they should not be weaponised or used in any way to somehow further their argument or insinuate that sex is not binary but on a spectrum.
And so I think that is the line we should take here. I think people with DSDs (whatever one they have) should be treated on a case by case basis with their own doctors, endocrinologists, geneticists etc.
I honestly think this has become such a red herring in the whole debate.
If we let the TRAs tie us up in knots about this then we will be doing their jobs for them.

All I know, is that I have two daughters who are just into their teens. I KNOW that if one of them failed to menstruate, had subsequent tests and was later discovered to have a DSD which made her genetically XY, there is NO WAY I would suddenly treat her as male, force her to use male bathrooms and facilities, change her pronouns.
There is nuance here, it is not black and white.
I guess this also goes to show that we are not a hive mind - we still have disagreements within our own community as "feminist" women (for want of a better term), but I think allowing ourselves to be bogged down in specific medical conditions will get us nowhere.

I have the UTMOST sympathy and respect for anyone coming to terms with this condition/s, I cannot imagine what it must take for them to go through this or have a child going through this, and seeing ill educated and hurtful comments online must be devastating.

Let's not forget the real issues.
Let's not forget the rarity of these conditions.

A Slightly Twisted Female has also posted today on this. Again, I can't say I agree with her /Exulansic/Cluniac on this one.

I'm not following the argument in that video at all. With the majority of these cases no one would know.

@ClareCAIS

Slightly Twisted female seems just as vile in her views, even down to the way she describes our vaginas - I am so amazed that anyone would think this was OK

I started trying to watch that STF vid but it is too slow and rambling. I have not seen anything I saw as vile from the GC side, but then again it could easily exist, including on videos I have watched where I didn't object to what was being said, but I might object now were I to watch it again as I am better informed than I was 6 hours ago.

I hope that the GC side continually tries to be as compassionate as possible.

But I do think that ultimately Exulansic and Cluniac are fighting for women's rights, they don't want to be having to refute TRA drivel re: people with DSDs, and in a debate like this there is a place for people who talk straight and try to get to the truth. There has to be a place for honest debate that doesn't seek to make no-one uncomfortable. If their sins are being blunt then I forgive them. If they are being unnecessarily blunt, and especially if their take on the science is lacking in nuance and compassion, then I will find it easier to sympathize with your assertion.

I think I'm going to try to re-watch a couple of vids now I know more.

ClaireCAIS - I'm very sorry if the link to the video I posted upset you, that was absolutely not my intention. I just wanted to show how the "debate" has really kicked off from that initial Exulansic video.

As I said in my post above, none of their opinions on this very specific subject reflect my own, although I do agree with a lot of what they say on other issues.
I absolutely believe DSDs are NOTHING to do with the "gender" debate and should be kept firmly out of it.
I would treat anyone with this DSD as I would treat my own daughter had she been been diagnosed with it as a teen. I don't believe anyone here who is a Mother would raise their girl for 15 years and then suddenly see her as a male just because they know her genetic code is not what they thought.

Again, apologies.

There has been some absolutely vile behaviour going on about this subject, and to Claire directly. I’ve been totally shocked by it.

It appears that some women are voluntarily going down a rabbit-hole which DSD orgs have asked to be left out of any discussions about gender identity. But now they appear to be following the same path. It’s inexplicable and very distressing

@BitterAndOnlySlightlyTwisted

There has been some absolutely vile behaviour going on about this subject, and to Claire directly. I’ve been totally shocked by it.

It appears that some women are voluntarily going down a rabbit-hole which DSD orgs have asked to be left out of any discussions about gender identity. But now they appear to be following the same path. It’s inexplicable and very distressing

I have certainly learnt a lot in the last 10 hours, much more than just watching cluniac and exulansic. I think that their straight talking is important, as is their knowledge. On this occasion they have undoubtedly lacked compassion and nuance. I don't feel as strongly as you and I entirely blame dishonest and ill-informed TRAs making claims that need debunking.

I agree Bitter.
There is NO WAY ON EARTH that people with DSDs should be lumped in with males who identify (whatever the hell that means) as females.

It's so far from that, its unreal.

The problem we have is, lets be clear, natal males trying to access female spaces and diminishing our rights, dignity and privacy because of no more than a feeling in their head.

I'm not sure in what world a person who has been socialised as, brought up as, has to all intents and purposes a female body, is to be included in the male estate.

It would be unthinkably cruel to expect them, as some of these Youtubers suggest, to suddenly turn over their lives and identity because they see it as a black and white issue.

Its ridiculous. And clearly why DSDs are a total red herring in this whole debate.

Let's continue to know who the real problem is created by.

@ClareCAIS

I also think that some of these views will only make things worse - will any policy maker take seriously the views of people calling for teenagers who were registered as female at birth & have a female phenotype, to be stripped of their sex marker, labelled in some way & then forced into male spaces - this will just be used by TRA to portray GC views as extreme & cruel, & that harms everyone

Very good point.

@BitterAndOnlySlightlyTwisted

There has been some absolutely vile behaviour going on about this subject, and to Claire directly. I’ve been totally shocked by it.

It appears that some women are voluntarily going down a rabbit-hole which DSD orgs have asked to be left out of any discussions about gender identity. But now they appear to be following the same path. It’s inexplicable and very distressing

I don't think women's groups can avoid this. Because DSDs haven't been left out of the picture.

Groups representing those people have asked, yes. WOmen's groups have asked, again and again. But it keeps being brought up and many people in the general public believe it. Here in Canada the majority of nice liberal people still think that trans people have some sort of dsd. And that idea is still very much alive in political leadership.

Women campaigners have no useful voice on this with those who have been given this misinformation. In the eyes of those people, these are TERFs and liars who are stuck in the dark ages not understanding biology. Nothing they say is seen as anything other than a political statement.

It's going to be up to others to make it clear that these two things should not be conflated.

Here in Canada the majority of nice liberal people still think that trans people have some sort of dsd. And that idea is still very much alive in political leadership.

How can they possibly think that? Surely it hasn't escaped their notice that the majority of males who identify as trangender in middle age do so after fathering children.

And do they really believe that all the teenage girls who suddenly decide that they're boys have a DSD?

And what about Stephonknee Wolscht? Is being trans age part of the DSD?

I've actually unfollowed several well known Youtubers who I previously had a fair bit of respect for.

The comments from some of them in "Slightly Twisted Females" two videos are astounding. There is just no nuance for them over this subject.

I have a whole new appreciation for what DSD sufferers must go through.

How can they possibly think that? Surely it hasn't escaped their notice that the majority of males who identify as trangender in middle age do so after fathering children.

Because TRAs have been very deliberately blurring the distinction and touting sex as a spectrum for years now. Yes, it's nonsense, but it's superficially compelling nonsense.

It's also because as it's being used by trans activists, "intersex" appears to be turning into an umbrella term and also into an identity. They appear to favour using "intersex" over the more accurate "DSD", presumably because the former suggests that there are individuals who can exist in a state which it part-way between male and female.

Much of what has been achieved by trans activists has been built on turning terms which have been well-known and used for, literally, ages, into vague concepts that people can opt into as they please. Remember, the Gender Recognition Act was enacted to benefit about 5000 people and there are now supposed to be around 100 times that number of transgender people in the UK.