TT Exulansic Youtube

[Fleek]

I've been watching TT Exulansic's videos on YouTube having seen a link to them on here. I have learnt so much - what she is sharing is so necessary in terms of this debate. I'm also finding them really upsetting. I'm so shocked by what I've seen and just wanted to talk about them here. If you haven't watched any yet, please do.

I have a condition which has meant having plastic surgery to make my body look more 'normal'. I've had multiple, very painful surgeries which have left me in a degree of chronic pain but ultimately, I have achieved my goal in that I now have a much more normal looking body which it is easier to go through life with. These surgeries have had a clear medical benefit beyond my appearance being changed, just to be clear. I have a medical condition which has objective markers. There is evidence having gone through these surgeries, I will now have better physical health in my old age and will be less likely to experience certain complications which the condition can end up causing so the benefits definitely aren't just cosmetic - it's just the cosmetic benefits meant a lot to me as a patient. My body was 'wrong' and that was badly affecting my mental health and so I've put myself through a lot to make it look 'right.'

So there I am with having gone through this journey and so I think watching these videos on YT feels that little bit more personal in some ways, even though I don't have gender dysphoria and my surgeries were completely different. I knew already that things like constructing a 'penis' out of someone's arm was utterly barbaric and had a high failure rate and I knew there could be complications with attempting to construct a vagina. I just had no idea how frequently there were complications and how dangerous this journey is. I suddenly have the view that it must be almost impossible to go through them safely - at the very least you are risking fissures and strictures and those can lead to serious complications. Just taking testosterone is likely to lead to heart damage, too. There are going to be so many people who go through these operations and who die prematurely because they end up with sepsis or other infections.

I just watched the latest video on Jazz. I felt sick to my stomach at that one in particular. How has this poor kid got any kind of future? Jazz is severely depressed, 150 pounds overweight, has no sexual functioning at all, has already experienced multiple surgeries and complications and is likely to experience more. It's a crime to be doing this to vulnerable young people. If Jazz hadn't had these surgeries, we'd be looking at a young man embarking on a degree at Harvard, perhaps at the beginning of a journey where he felt comfortable with his sex and his sexuality. He'd be out having fun. My surgeries were so incredibly tough but on balance, they were worth it and while I'm in pain here and there, I don't have any additional complications which will actually threaten my life. That isn't the case with trans surgeries. Surgeons are literally butchering healthy bodies. They must know they are. How have things been allowed to go in this direction? (I know the answer to that really)

[quote ClareCAIS]@beastlyslumber the video still currently up is referring to women with CAIS as CAIS males, whilst talking about our bodies in the most dehumanising ways & without any empathy - she also has a video making all sorts of ridiculous claims about CAIS voices. This is all the sort of medical abuses we previously faced - doctors referring to us “under-virilised males” whilst measuring & discussing every part of our body, without any thought of our needs - even going as far as taking naked photos of girls and women with CAIS to put in medical journals. The way she is discussing these issues, feels very much like this - & I am truly shocked that anyone thinks this is OK

The comments went even further & called for widespread testing of babies, so that babies with CAIS could be identified and excluded from all female spaces - how is this ever OK?[/quote]
Ah okay. So the video's still up? So she's not talking about a particular person but CAIS individuals in general? I thought it was the Dalea Rundblad video that you were talking about.

Were the comments you mention from exulansic or from viewers? I guess she can't be held responsible for the things other people say on her channel.

If that video is still up then I guess it's the Jennings who have come after her, because all her Jazz videos have gone.

Exulansic was specifically talking about one person, Dalea Rundblad, who said they had CAIS and who has subsequently been found to have previously claimed to have PAIS & wrote a book about it, under a different name.

Cluniac has posted a YT video about it.

It is difficult to engage with this thread. To defend a particular thing Exulansic has said gets a response about something else she said and any discussion is taken as being an attack on people with DSDs.

I wonder if there's a similar thread somewhere where trans activists are being put on the spot over the dehumanising way DSD conditions are instrumentalised and are trying hard to respond respectfully?

I wish mumsnet would actually explain what I said that was deletion-worthy as I genuinely don;t know. At the very least message me my post so I can see what I wrote and reflect.

[If anyone fears that they might be offended by someone who is simply trying to understand, explain their understanding and be corrected if needs be, then please do not read this poist].

If someone is male and goes online claiming to be female and fighting for the right for men to access women's spaces and services then they can expect criticism from Exulansic and others.

If someone goes online and is honest and compassionate then I don't believe that they are at risk from Exulansic.

I believe that Exulansic's position is "sex is binary, keep all men / males out of women's spaces". I have zero problem with this. But it means defining men and women, which means defining male and female as male and female is sex, and men and women are sex classes.

Male or female is not something that is simply "penis or not?", and because of TRAs we can't simply say "it's obvious, we've worked it out for tens of thousands of years, why on earth would humans have suddenly lost their ability to correctly sex other humans?!?!?" It has to have a more definitive meaning - because of TRAs that definition has to get scientific. Because of TRAs trying to eliminate women's sex based rights and a tiny percentage of trans women passing reasonably well, people who are GC cannot simply say anymore "looks female, is woman".

I have zero problem with someone with a medically diagnosed DSD trying to make the case that some - a tiny tiny minority - of male people should be treated as if they were female by society. I don't know enough to know when that should happen, if at all.

Now to get a bit more specific and actually talk about AIS (having done some reading).

From what I can understand, AIS prevents normal male sexual development, and as a result, those presenting are XY. It would be weird if females were presenting at their doctors complaining that their female sexual development was not happening in a normal male way. I don't know if AIS cannot occur in XX people, or if it can occur but it is never noticed because it doesn't do harm to those on a female developmental pathway. I think that this is a question that Exulansic is unable to answer as well.

From what I can understand, people with PAIS (including, it appears, the name-changing man who was brought up as a boy and transitioned to presenting as a "woman" at 17 and who Exulansic was saying was male) have sexual characteristics which an ignorant person on the street might clumsily call "intersex". People with CAIS have sexual characteristics which an ignorant person on the street might clumsily describe as "female, but not working properly".

The problem we have is that when lots and lots of people who are categorically and unequivocally male with no DSD claim to be women on the basis of sexual characteristics such as wearing a dress or having breasts or not having a penis, then women are inevitably going to start saying "sorry, female characteristics are not good enough, we need a more definitive set of criteria", however well you pass. And that leads to academic debates where the search for truth is incompatible with protecting people's feelings.

It seems to me that there are two opposing point of view

(1) CAIS = XY = male = man, simple
and
(2) CAIS might equal XY but it also equals female appearance to the point that one has to start saying "if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck".

It seems to me that in any normal compassionate society where there is a bit of give and take on all sides then viewpoint (2) wins.

In a nasty, weird society where man claim women's rights based on practically nothing then women are likely to start leaning towards viewpoint (1), because the moment you give an inch disingenuous activists and outright liars will start saying ludicrous things like "XY chromosomes give us no idea what sex someone is", and "this musclebound 6'4 weightlifter with a beard and a bit of lippy is a girl".

On reflection - and without necessarily seeing let alone remembering all of what Exulansic said - I think she should have made it clearer that whilst XY = man and no man can be a woman, and that DSDs have nothing to do with trans issues, there are a tiny minority of people with DSDs who deserve compassionate treatment by society that doesn't fall into the simple rules that work for the vast majority.

[quote ClareCAIS]@beastlyslumber the comments about testing us all as babies as a way to identify & exclude us, were from Exulansic - but other comments were even more bizarre, including ideas of women with CAIS growing a penis if placed in a woman’s prison[/quote]
This suprises me. I think there are many criticisms which have been levelled at Exulansic, some by me, but posting what is clearly fantasy science isn't something I'd expect.

Was the comment that CAIS women could grow a penis from her? Because, if so, that seems like remarkable ignorance from someone on the face of it intelligent and well-read.

[quote ClareCAIS]@beastlyslumber the comments about testing us all as babies as a way to identify & exclude us, were from Exulansic - but other comments were even more bizarre, including ideas of women with CAIS growing a penis if placed in a woman’s prison[/quote]
If you are right - and I have no reason to doubt you - then on this occasion Exulansic needs to start trying to be more kind and sympathetic to people with DSDs.

However, I also think that you need to cut her a bit of slack. How would you propose to define the sex class known as "women" for the essential purpose of protecting women's rights? Can you understand why someone who recognises women's rights are under a sustained attack would focus on preserving rights for the 50% and not prioritise the needs of a tiny minority with certain DSDs?

Many people with DSD, especially in parts of the US or from developing countries, have had little medical information or care & often don’t fully understand their own history.

Which is why the sooner a disorder can be identified, then the better it is for the individual. Do you really think it is better for someone to remain ignorant of their condition - until they maybe find out at puberty. What if there was something that could be done to treat someone? Maybe not right now, but in the future. Gene therapy of similar. Irrespective of what medical condition someone suffers from, it is best to be aware of it.

Plus from another perspective, there are implications for women in things such as sport if disorders are not identified. Take the winners of the gold, silver and bronze medals in the 800M at the 2016 Olympics. Caster Semenya, Margaret Wambui and Francine Niyonsaba took all the medals. There are women who will never get a chance to compete in the Olympics again and I don't understand how anyone thinks it is fair that they were robbed of any medal in their own sport.

Also, I wouldn't be quite so sure that individual (recent allegedly self identified CAIS activist/ambassador) is quite the honest person you seem to be portraying them as. Yet TT seems to be portrayed as the devil incarnate. I am wondering what people think was incorrect on the Science. Are the studies she went through wrong or something?

Yes, I think we all want our bodies not to be fetishised. I agree with you on that.

[quote ClareCAIS]@NotMyGenderGoblin I don’t disagree with anything you have said there, but this is not the approach I have seen Exulansic take in any of her videos or comments.

For those of us with CAIS (1 in 40,000), we will be observed as female at birth & raised as female - & will typically appear as very feminine looking women due to our complete lack of sensitivity to androgens - we have no choice but to be seen as women by anyone with eyes and ears. I couldn’t transition to male even if I wanted to, as my body is unable to masculinise

Even with PAIS (which is vanishingly rare) there is frequently little or no androgen response at puberty - and there may initially be some uncertainty about what sex it is best to raise the child, especially in developing countries where there is limited medical care

However, none of these endless arguments are helpful, especially as they are mainly being carried out by people googling complex medical papers and without any relevant qualifications - we really are not relevant to whether people can change sex or as a way to prove that biological sex doesn’t exist[/quote]
Thank you - I am glad to know that I am able to post with a degree of sensitivity and without being too ignorant.

Para 2 - makes complete sense, and I would argue that from a practical point of view you have nothing to be concerned about - even if the toilets were split XX and XY no-one would think of challenging you, let alone challenge you.

Para 4 - 100%... but can I refer you back to my last post. Can you help me come to a definition of woman which is more compassionate and fairer than "XX", whilst remaining clear and unambiguous, and preventing men claiming to be women?

[quote ClareCAIS]@Cailleach1I think you are missing the point as I strongly believe in full truth disclosure - but this does not involve testing all babies & excluding those from CAIS from all female spaces, this would be abusive & would only lead to further shame & isolation & an increasing likelihood that people will be too scared to ever tell anyone.

I am not sure what crime you think Dalea was guilty of? She is not a trans activist[/quote]
According to Cluniac, who claims to have found a book written by Dalea before changing name "Dalea Rundblad lied about having CAIS. He was raised as a boy, and he has PAIS. He transitioned to live as a woman."

I am not sure whether the PAIS was an explicit claim that Dalea used to make under Dalea's old name, or whether Cluniac is assuming that Dalea had PAIS because no-one with CAIS would be brought up as a boy.

[quote ClareCAIS]@NotMyGenderGoblin I would say that all categories are a bit fuzzy around the edges, but that doesn’t mean that the categories don’t exist and I think you are falling into the TRA trap by arguing about the platonic ideal of a woman. This is what Fausto Sterling did & then came up with the ridiculous intersex statistics, which are now even including women with PCOS.

We all know what typical female biology is, but for a teeny tiny number of us, we don’t fit neatly but still have to exist in the world.[/quote]
Point taken, but we still have a MASSIVE MASSIVE PROBLEM that affects tens of thousands of women for every one person with CAIS. Men seeking to infringe on women's spaces and rights.

A woman cannot be someone who says they are a woman or someone who presents in a stereotypically female way. Yet it cannot simply be "XX" without excluding you, and - sat here right now - I can't see that I want to exclude you.

In my opinion it is reasonable for GC women to say that there are three options here -

(1) Woman equals XX

(2) Woman equals XX and a percentage of people with DSDs who meet a very specific set of criteria.

(3) Piss-takers, en-masse, decide to stop trying to encroach on women's sex based rights meaning that the definition of a woman becomes irrelevant, XX or XY is irrelevant, and the only thing that matters is a common sense eye test which says "Geri Halliwell - woman [why did she pop into my head first?]; ClareCAIS - woman; Caster Semenya - man, on the basis that Caster's appearance clearly risks making women who are getting changed feel uncomfortable and who clearly has a massive sporting advantage compared to the group more normally regarded as women".

Obviously the policing of whatever definition in place is an entirely different matter.

[quote ClareCAIS]@NotMyGenderGoblin I find it quite bizarre that we have people trawling the internet to try & prove whether someone has CAIS or PAIS - if born with atypical genital appearance, but very little subsequent androgen response, they may be living with deep shame, trauma & confusion about their body - and some parents in developing countries have tried to force children diagnosed with CAIS or high grade PAIS to live as boys, if having a boy is culturally advantageous - some incredibly abusive things have been done to children born with DSD[/quote]
I don't find it bizarre that people who are passionately fighting for truth and women's rights might occasionally research people who they perceive as muddying the waters (or lying) and calling those people out if they are found to be liars. Dalea appears to have changed Dalea's story over the years - Cluniac seems to think this shows dishonesty, which is relevant if Dalea is expecting people to respect and trust Dalea.

[quote ClareCAIS]@NotMyGenderGoblin that is pretty much how things worked until very recently - for all intents & purposes those of us with CAIS are women & are observed & recorded as female at birth. Even with more complex DSD that result in atypical genital appearance, they are all recorded as either male or female & the majority continue to live as the sex recorded on their birth certificate, especially now that we have a better understanding of sex development[/quote]
Perhaps that's the answer - for most purposes women's rights come down to whether you were recorded female at birth. Exceptions being things like people with a DSD and a massive physical advantage being banned from women's sports despite being RFAB.

I think the PAIS/CAIS distinction matters for me for this reason. I have no issue at all sharing a changing room with a woman with CAIS, who is visibly female, and has been brought up and socialised as female. What her chromosones are doing is frankly a matter for her and her doctor, and noone else.

I'm uncomfortable sharing a changing room with someone with ambiguous appearing genitalia, who is physiologically male, and who has been brought up and socialised as male. That moves from 'uncomfortable' to a huge 'woah no way' the minute I know that that individual has lied about their diagnosis and upbringing.

With Dalea, I have no insider knowledge and have no idea where the truth lies. But I can understand people wanting to dig. Particularly in a culture where plenty of men are working quite hard to gain access to female spaces, and some of those at least have played fast and loose with the truth to do so.

(@ClareCAIS thank you for clarifying about the penis growing quote.)