Therapist asking if I'm a man, woman or gender neutral.

[aweegc]

I got a feedback form from my therapist (clinical psychologist) yesterday. It's about how I feel things are going and how I feel I've had things explained to me or been treated. All fine. I've had it before but this time the last question (it's not obligatory to complete the form but if you do then you can't skip question) the last one was "Are you a man / woman /gender neutral? The very last page had a text box for extra comments. I used it and went to town. My therapist doesn't write these forms, but I was really pissed off.

The thing is, I'm having long term trauma therapy and the majority of those traumas are due specifically to me being - not identifying as - female. Of course, I know all the politics around all this, I've seen this question on forms (or similar) a hundred times, I've had rape threats because of my biological understandings etc, but to have this question in a therapeutic setting has completely thrown me. Especially when male violence is about to become a big part of our work.

I'm not even sure where I'm going with this post. I am trying to get out of a relationship that was 13 years of gaslighting. That feeling when you're being gaslighted and you're not sure what's going on, you're sure you're right but you no longer know where up is, who you trust etc is back.

If she believes that a man who identifies as a woman because he at least in part finds it sexually thrilling to be victimised by men IS a woman, then where do my experiences of being sexually victimised because I am a woman fit in? I feel that that man and I are definitely not the same, but I've just been categorised as the same in her eyes.

I actually ticked gender neutral and wrote - amongst other things - that I'm not that either but as I was forced to give an inaccurate answer, that was the one I chose.

If anybody can untangle my thoughts here I'd be most grateful. I'll be talking to her about the form next session anyway but I feel so "gaslighting confused" that I am not even sure I can explain why I feel gaslighted/gaslit. And it's extremely strange because I'm normally very, very clear about all aspects of this.

I'm also really fucking pissed off that because of a tiny minority of people - amongst whom the adult majority are men - my sex-based experiences and existence is undermined by no longer being sex-based.

Maybe I should have identified as "anything but biologically female" earlier in life, because then I'd not have been raped or sexually assaulted so much?

I'm reading everything, so thank you.

One of the things this thread (re)highlights to me is the question "How many times does an adult woman have to have been raped before her feelings are as valid as a man who feels discriminated against for not having his current gender identity recognised?" He can be triggered, and it counts so much that systems are changed, whereas if I'm triggered, it's a case of "suck it up buttercup".

Not that that's news to me, but given that this has been triggering for me, it's brought it home in quite a personal way.

“Mouseonmychair

This is a standard form and a standard question. Seriously some people look for offence in everything. Just fill out the question as it states from the 3 answers. I don't know anyone who would be unable to answer“

Of course it isn’t standard.

It is extremely offensive in the context of OP’s therapy. Did you read her post?

Your “highly personal views” are your views on trans ideology being incompatible and opposed to your feminist ideology surrounding gender

This really, really, really is not a highly personal view. It is really the mainstream view.

and this is why you are so trouble by the question. Most people who simply didn’t particularly agree with trans people having really changed sex/gender wouldn’t be as troubled as you by a gender neutral option even if they didn’t fully agree it was possible

It's not fair on the OP to suggest she is troubled by an offensive question because of anything in her rather than because of the question and the troublesome ideology it reinforces. Those people who are not troubled, in my experience, just don't understand what is being said as they are still of the naive belief that society could not really disappear up its own arse in the way that it has. Once it's explained to them, they are really troubled.

It’s not me whose in the bubble of minority thought on this.

It is

Without wanting to cause offense it seems that you are projecting many of your own issues into your own ideology and opposing trans ideology and if that makes this form so troubling to you, that may be an obstacle to you getting help. I really think you should let it go rather than hold back from getting help if you need it.

Stop gaslighting the OP. She is not projecting her issues at all. She is objecting to a question that is attempting to create a narrative in which the reality of her abusive experience - perpetuated because of her body, not her identity - is diminished and ignored. Good on OP for saying no to this. When a victim says 'enough', they are not projecting. It's too easy to write off what abused people say and attribute it to their abuse rather than actually listening.

OPs views are not niche and are not a projection of the undeniable trauma caused because of her biology.

And that for OP’s own mental health she shouldn’t allow herself to be so triggered by a standard form that she doesn’t get the help she needs. And if this is that triggering to her she does need it.

What a hideous thing to say. Many people would be triggered by this. Are you suggesting that we should ignore them? cos if we're going down the route of ignoring some people who are triggered, can you explain why we should not just ignore the pain of the "miniscule minority" of trans people rather than the large number of women who've been abused by men?

Stop hiding behind the narrative of being a 'standard form'. There have been many things which have been 'standard' which as a society we no longer accept. Whether or not it's a standard form (it isn't) is completely irrelevant.

It used to be standard to have men's clothes and women's clothes. Are you suggesting that if trans people were triggered by that, they should just have not allowed themselves to be?

Your posts are awful.

As I’ve already explained - it means someone feels that they can change sex/gender.

Why on earth should a question about a minority belief be included on a form for everyone? What is the point of asking about this belief?

It’s funny to act like trans are some ever growing movement like a communist or fascist revolution taking place - they’re a minuscule minority and always will be.

You admit this is a minority belief, and yet look what is happening to appease this tiny minority. Here's another thread from today:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4405154-labour-member-suspended-for-saying-only-women-go-through-menopause

however the feminist belief that gender is seperate from sex and is a “performance” is a very minority view.

No, the idea that gender is a performance is Judith Butler, not general feminist theory. It is more in the field of ‘queer theory’.

Gender is cultural expectations of how people should behave and present based on sex, regardless of whether they confirm to those expectations.

As I’ve already explained - it means someone feels that they can change sex/gender.

No, that is not what ‘gender neutral’ means. ‘Neutral’ means neither one thing or the other, or if related to colour, beige. It has no meaning that relates to change.

[quote SaltyPepper]@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

Yes, they are minority beliefs. The belief in sex being unchanging is the majority - however the feminist belief that gender is seperate from sex and is a “performance” is a very minority view.

Obviously you are mistaken that once you explain your point of view to people they are troubled. If this were so more people would be as upset as you are and yet they’re not. Perhaps they’re humouring you because your so obviously deeply obsessed with this.

What exactly do you think I’m in the minority on? I’m not the trans activist you seem to see everywhere.

What is your point about men and women’s clothes? We still have men’s and women’s clothes. Of course trans people shouldn’t allow themselves to be triggered by that. What on earth is your point?[/quote]
You have missed so much. You are clueless and are ignoring the words of those who know more than you.

Hospital wards
Prison cells
Sports
Awards
Jobs
Politicians
MoD
MoJ

And many many more are embroiled in this. Why do you think there are so many threads, so many newspaper articles, so many debates in the House of Lords, so many court cases, so many laws being changed?

For one moment think - have you missed something?

What exactly do you think I’m in the minority on?

Believing that neutral means change. I think you are in a minority of one there.

Beyond that you have failed to explain any of your views, so I couldn’t say.

Yes, they are minority beliefs. The belief in sex being unchanging is the majority - however the feminist belief that gender is seperate from sex and is a “performance” is a very minority view.

The form is asking a question which only makes sense if you hold the minority view that sex is unchanging. Most people view gender and sex as the same thing, so most people think gender and sex cannot change. Why do you think the OP feels any differently?

Obviously you are mistaken that once you explain your point of view to people they are troubled. If this were so more people would be as upset as you are and yet they’re not. Perhaps they’re humouring you because your so obviously deeply obsessed with this.

You are making a big wadge of assumptions here. I don't explain my pov, I explain the facts. Many people think a transwoman is a biological woman who thinks they're a man. Many people don't think biological men will compete in women's sports or that a biological man would be eligible for a rape crisis job advertised for a woman or that a lesbian woman could be called a transphobe for not wanting to have sex with a biological man. None of that is a pov. They're not humouring me but your comment here is irrelevant as we could equally say that your peers are humouring you when they agree that this sort of thing is no big deal.

What exactly do you think I’m in the minority on? I’m not the trans activist you seem to see everywhere.

You have no idea what I see everywhere. Stop being so patronising.

What is your point about men and women’s clothes? We still have men’s and women’s clothes. Of course trans people shouldn’t allow themselves to be triggered by that. What on earth is your point?

My point is that you were suggesting that because the OP is in what you think is a minority, rather than changing the form, the OP should accept that this is her issue and try and change herself. But by that logic, people who are trans, and clearly in the minority should change themselves rather than expecting the world to change around them. You introduced the concept of 'standard' as regards the form as some sort of indicator that it was 'just normal' and therefore anyone who objected to it should sort themselves out. But by that logic, we should do away with all trans rights and just tell/ offer support to trans people so that they can stop objecting to things that are standard.

The form is asking a question which only makes sense if you hold the minority view that sex is unchanging

Apologies, this should read 'only makes sense if you hold the minority view that sex can change'

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

Whatever my own thoughts my original advice to ignore the form wasn’t given out of defending either trans or feminist theory, but simply because the form likely wasn’t personally overseen by the therapist and for OP to stop seeing him or her (or they) because of form they likely had nothing to do with would be a massive overreaction.
It’s very likely a standard form.

@merrymouse

Whether you call gender a “performance” (like whoever the hell Butler is) or trying to conform and in essence give a performance for society (like feminists say) is pointless semantics. Both amount to the same basic idea of gender not being intrinsically tied to sex (in essence the same thing) - this isn’t a widely held idea, the majority of people see sex and gender as either the exact same thing (most people) or at the least as sex directly influencing gendered behaviour of all kinds.

I guess if the therapist can see that the form is problematic, there would be a chance that the form could be useful. Personally if the therapist had nothing to do with creating it and could see that it was supporting an ideology which is problematic for many women, perhaps especially those who have been abused, I might consider continuing to see them. Otherwise. The therapist also needs to stand up for her clients by standing up to whoever designed the atrocity of a form. What is clear is that the OPs reaction to this form is proportionate and reasonable.

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

Sister you are in a bubble and you really have no idea how most people see the whole feminist vs trans “battle”. Which is basically as a big joke on both “sides”.

Any one who thinks defending the right to even define ourselves as a sex class , amd to retain our sex based rights is a home should perhaps hand over their bank accounts , quit their jobs , remove their name from the tenancy agreement agreement quit school/college/University. Because of feminism is a joke they presumably don't want the benefits it has gained them?

[quote SaltyPepper]@HoardingSamphireSaurus

Sister you are in a bubble and you really have no idea how most people see the whole feminist vs trans “battle”. Which is basically as a big joke on both “sides”.[/quote]
A joke?

You think it's a 'joke' that women are being raped in prisons and refuges?

You think it's a 'joke' that women are being fired or forced out of their jobs?

You think it's a 'joke' that children are being put on a path to sterility when they are barely teenagers?

You have a very sick sense of humour.

I find it very telling that some posters think that a thread started by a woman traumatised by sexual violence is the ideal place to start telling us we’re all silly women , everyone thinks gender and sex are the same and that like no one cares about this stuff you bigots

I mean it’s a quite astonishing empathy fail

[quote SaltyPepper]@merrymouse

Whether you call gender a “performance” (like whoever the hell Butler is) or trying to conform and in essence give a performance for society (like feminists say) is pointless semantics. Both amount to the same basic idea of gender not being intrinsically tied to sex (in essence the same thing) - this isn’t a widely held idea, the majority of people see sex and gender as either the exact same thing (most people) or at the least as sex directly influencing gendered behaviour of all kinds.[/quote]
As has already been explained to you, it's not feminists who say gender is a 'performance', it's queer theorists like Judith Butler. Here's a recent interview with her where she explains what that means:

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/sep/07/judith-butler-interview-gender

(If you read that and think you are no further forward due to the incomprehensible word salad - that is part of the problem.)

The feminist view is that 'gender' is imposed on us by society. That society expects us to be a certain way because of our sex. Feminists say that we don't have to conform to this. We're not saying that it's not tied to sex. Of course it is.

I agree that many people use the word 'gender' as a polite euphemism for 'sex', because the word 'sex' is also used as shorthand for 'sexual intercourse'. Queer theorists and transactivists are using this confusion of terms to persuade people that because the performative 'gender' that Butler talks about can be changed (by a man crossdressing, for example), that sex can also be changed. They also maintain that only performative gender matters and sex is irrelevant. This is why boys end up in the girls' changing rooms in schools.

@Theeyeballsinthesky

I find it very telling that some posters think that a thread started by a woman traumatised by sexual violence is the ideal place to start telling us we’re all silly women , everyone thinks gender and sex are the same and that like no one cares about this stuff you bigots

I mean it’s a quite astonishing empathy fail

I agree. I think @SaltyPepper should start their own thread if they want to learn about what feminists think about transgenderism, and stop derailing this one. And probably have a read of this thread first:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?

@Theeyeballsinthesky

I find it very telling that some posters think that a thread started by a woman traumatised by sexual violence is the ideal place to start telling us we’re all silly women , everyone thinks gender and sex are the same and that like no one cares about this stuff you bigots

I mean it’s a quite astonishing empathy fail

Agreed. I'm actually quite appalled by this.

Whatever your views on gender ideology, telling a woman she should just get over her trauma because everyone thinks this stuff is a joke - I don't even know what to say about that, actually. I can't quite fathom how lacking in ordinary human care you'd have to be to do that.

“like whoever the hell Butler is”

You really are out of your depth.

[quote SaltyPepper]@HoardingSamphireSaurus

Sister you are in a bubble and you really have no idea how most people see the whole feminist vs trans “battle”. Which is basically as a big joke on both “sides”.[/quote]
So you think it is a joke that women are being raped by men placed in the women's estate?

And you don't think it worth closing your mouth and opening your mind and having a quick look beyond the end of your own nose?

That you don't recognise names used here indicates you have waded into something you know little about.

Again, take a step back. Do some research.