Therapist asking if I'm a man, woman or gender neutral.

[aweegc]

I got a feedback form from my therapist (clinical psychologist) yesterday. It's about how I feel things are going and how I feel I've had things explained to me or been treated. All fine. I've had it before but this time the last question (it's not obligatory to complete the form but if you do then you can't skip question) the last one was "Are you a man / woman /gender neutral? The very last page had a text box for extra comments. I used it and went to town. My therapist doesn't write these forms, but I was really pissed off.

The thing is, I'm having long term trauma therapy and the majority of those traumas are due specifically to me being - not identifying as - female. Of course, I know all the politics around all this, I've seen this question on forms (or similar) a hundred times, I've had rape threats because of my biological understandings etc, but to have this question in a therapeutic setting has completely thrown me. Especially when male violence is about to become a big part of our work.

I'm not even sure where I'm going with this post. I am trying to get out of a relationship that was 13 years of gaslighting. That feeling when you're being gaslighted and you're not sure what's going on, you're sure you're right but you no longer know where up is, who you trust etc is back.

If she believes that a man who identifies as a woman because he at least in part finds it sexually thrilling to be victimised by men IS a woman, then where do my experiences of being sexually victimised because I am a woman fit in? I feel that that man and I are definitely not the same, but I've just been categorised as the same in her eyes.

I actually ticked gender neutral and wrote - amongst other things - that I'm not that either but as I was forced to give an inaccurate answer, that was the one I chose.

If anybody can untangle my thoughts here I'd be most grateful. I'll be talking to her about the form next session anyway but I feel so "gaslighting confused" that I am not even sure I can explain why I feel gaslighted/gaslit. And it's extremely strange because I'm normally very, very clear about all aspects of this.

I'm also really fucking pissed off that because of a tiny minority of people - amongst whom the adult majority are men - my sex-based experiences and existence is undermined by no longer being sex-based.

Maybe I should have identified as "anything but biologically female" earlier in life, because then I'd not have been raped or sexually assaulted so much?

Ha! That told you merry you naughty, nasty woman you!

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

Ha! That told you merry you naughty, nasty woman you!

Sadly I think we are never going to find out what ‘gender neutral’ means in the context of sex.

☹️

I am sure you are right.

It would be refreshing if, instead if berating women for having an opinion, such posters could just say "Well, you focus on sex, I focus on gender. They are discrete entities and we seem to value them differently"

If that ever happened we could all go home!

[quote SaltyPepper]@merrymouse

I’m aware of it. You’ve just gone so far into the bubble with like minded people you have no idea how most people perceive you or this argument between feminists and trans ideology.[/quote]
I think the fact you have come and inserted yourself onto a thread by a distressed poster looking for support following years of abuse, and callously told her to get over it (not exact wording) is actually fucking disgusting.
Your talking a whole load of shite that makes zero sense, you don't know what your talking about, your incredibly rude, and come across like a petulant child.
So rather than derailing this thread any longer, why don't you start your own thread to chastise women and leave the op alone to find support and help from people who care enough to help her.

My "highly personal views".

Im guessing you've never lived outside The West. Or maybe off the Internet? Because the majority of the country think that sex is a fact and if we put that in the world, the people who think that gender stereotypes of internal feelings cancel biological sex are such a tiny minority, they're statistically insignificant.

But you've made me think. Maybe I'm being transphobic. I mean I assumed the people who raped me were men, what with their penises, and bigger and stronger bodies. But perhaps I was wrong? I mean maybe I should be more sensitive because perhaps they could have felt like they were gender neutral, female, two-spirit or something else that day? Your thinking (and others on this thread) actually implies this. It's the natural continuation of the argument that identity trumps sex. But no matter what any of them would tick on a form, their male biology is what they used to injure my body. Their gender identity that day had zero impact on that.

@Mouseonmychair

This is a standard form and a standard question. Seriously some people look for offence in everything. Just fill out the question as it states from the 3 answers. I don't know anyone who would be unable to answer.

Stunning.

"How to read without understanding a thing" must be a badge that people wear with pride nowadays.

Agree it seems like a reasonable question, which some people will want the opportunity to answer.

Unfortunately almost every question will trigger someone somewhere. People can’t just stop asking reasonable questions because of that.

Agree it seems like a reasonable question, which some people will want the opportunity to answer.

How is it reasonable to know whether someone is a man, woman or doesn't know what they are but just likes wearing random clothes? It is ridiculous.

In your shoes I would write an email to the therapist, and ask them to read it as a matter of utmost importance before your next session.

In it I would point out my (very valid) issues with the principal behind the question. I would include the fact that you have a lot of work to do with him/her that is mainly around sex based violence of an emotional, and physical nature.

With that in mind is the therapist able to set political theories/ideologies aside for the working sessions with you or do you need to look else where?

I would go in for a final session to discuss the matter, as I think it is important for you to make a choice based on a face to face. If you decide to continue - fine but if not, then I would not pay for the final session.

A physcologist (above all others) sending a form like that, containing that particular question seems to me to be lazy and ill thought out. Worth thinking about.

@Mouseonmychair

This is a standard form and a standard question. Seriously some people look for offence in everything. Just fill out the question as it states from the 3 answers. I don't know anyone who would be unable to answer.

Since when is it a standard question?! After engaging with someone in therapy?? I'd certainly be able to answer, but I'd be incandescent at being bloody asked.

@Sunnysideup999

The question is important because it’s helping you identify and verbalise your feelings about your gender and how you identify yourself. This is all helpful to explore with your therapist. That is why the question is there . It’s not about how you answer it - it’s about what it brings up for you . Which is clearly a lot. Feel the anger and work out where it should be directed. I don’t think you are angry with your therapist - but it might feel like that.

I am really unsure about that.

Surely the urgent thing for the patient to tackle right now is the gaslighting, to unpick that, and shore up her boundries.

You could say that she needs a massive amount of work on reality, the tangible, the objective.

Not "how do you feel about being a woman" ?

@Theeyeballsinthesky

I don’t want to derail the OP thread so will merely observe that assuming a TW or TM needs a “sexchange” to be trans is deeply transphobic

OP I completely understand - either they think gender and sex are the same which is worrying or they subscribe ti gender ideology which is also worrying and also tone deaf when dealing with someone who has suffered sex based violence

I don’t want to derail the OP thread so will merely observe that assuming a TW or TM needs a “sexchange” to be trans is deeply transphobic

Or it may just be a misunderstanding. Stop with the threatening language.

If you are expecting your therapist and some random form to share your highly personal views on sex/gender and all that jazz you will probably be disappointed more often than not. The question is can you get therapy from someone who doesn’t share your exact feminist politics? Because it’s obvious that this has upset you greatly and probably should be worked through.

No they are expecting their therapist to share the knowledge held by the vast majority of humanity that sex is binary and important , especially when it comes to a female person who has been the victim of male violence. Any therapist who is promoting niche religious/ philosophical views as this form seems to suggest , should be avoided at all cost.

@SaltyPepper

If you are expecting your therapist and some random form to share your highly personal views on sex/gender and all that jazz you will probably be disappointed more often than not. The question is can you get therapy from someone who doesn’t share your exact feminist politics? Because it’s obvious that this has upset you greatly and probably should be worked through.

Loads of people share OPs views They're very much the mainstream view.

@aweegc

I’m not a trans activist nor do I really care about their ideology. The majority of the country (and all countries) do think sex is a fact - however this is probably the only part of your view that is shared by the majority, as the majority don’t even differentiate between sex and gender, dont believe gender is a performance and aren’t feminists or caught up in the whole trans vs feminist ideology battle. It barely registers with them. They’re probably more aware of it through Piers Morgan and his ilk.

Your “highly personal views” are your views on trans ideology being incompatible and opposed to your feminist ideology surrounding gender and this is why you are so trouble by the question. Most people who simply didn’t particularly agree with trans people having really changed sex/gender wouldn’t be as troubled as you by a gender neutral option even if they didn’t fully agree it was possible.

It’s not me whose in the bubble of minority thought on this. Without wanting to cause offense it seems that you are projecting many of your own issues into your own ideology and opposing trans ideology and if that makes this form so troubling to you, that may be an obstacle to you getting help. I really think you should let it go rather than hold back from getting help if you need it.

Without wanting to cause offense it seems that you are projecting many of your own issues into your own ideology and opposing trans ideology and if that makes this form so troubling to you, that may be an obstacle to you getting help. I really think you should let it go rather than hold back from getting help if you need it

The male CEO of a rape crisis said similar 🤔 I hope you aren't going to tell op she should regrade her trauma ?

And yet the moment you ask one of those who don't care what they think about men accessing single sex female spaces, taking part in women's sports or if, as a man they would sleep with a transwomen everything changes.

Once the physical reality is understood most people suddenly realise that they have no it engaged with the topic enough to have understood what it is some women are shouting about.

Which is why we keep shouting.

@334bu

The vast majority of humanity also hold that sex and gender are the same. Or at the least that the sexes are different and this will always lead to different gendered behaviour.

Does this make the view that sex they are not the same niche religious as well?

It’s not me whose in the bubble of minority thought on this. Without wanting to cause offense it seems that you are projecting many of your own issues into your own ideology and opposing trans ideology and if that makes this form so troubling to you, that may be an obstacle to you getting help. I really think you should let it go rather than hold back from getting help if you need it.

What ideology is the OP projecting?

Surely it is the therapists who are projecting their ideology onto their patients?

The therapists are the ones espousing the ideology, against all scientific evidence , that human sex classes are not binary. It is not the place of therapists to force their religious/ philosophical beliefs onto their patients.

The vast majority of humanity also hold that sex and gender are the same.

No the vast majority of humanity believe that the words " sex" and gender mean the same, both referring to one of the two human sex classes and with the latter being simply a euphemism for the former.

Does this make the view that sex they are not the same niche religious as well?

The vast majority of humanity also hold that sex and gender are the same.

People who use non-binary gender identity categories do not believe this and the OP was clearly asked whether she is ‘gender neutral’.

I’m not sure what you believe, but it isn’t relevant to the question asked which was obviously about gender identity.

The vast majority of humanity also hold that sex and gender are the same

If sex and gender are the same, what does 'gender neutral' mean on the form that the OP mentioned?

This is what the OP said about the form:

The question was:
"Are you a:
Man
Woman
Gender neutral"

So if gender and sex are the same, it's asking are you a man, a woman or 'sex neutral'?

What does 'sex neutral' mean?

I'm with you OP. I don't go to therapy because I am too scared of this ideology coming up and for me it would be a huge trigger and a barrier for what I want to talk about, i.e. gaslighting. If a therapist can't see it's gaslighting then how can they understand me at all? There's no help there.

I think what you've written here is clear and your points are easy to follow so when you talk to your therapist I would basically say what you're saying here. Maybe take some notes so you don't forget anything important.

Are you accessing therapy privately or through NHS? In either case, you have a right to stop or to change therapists, but with NHS obviously you're more limited as to what you can do. I wish you luck with it

If she believes that a man who identifies as a woman because he at least in part finds it sexually thrilling to be victimised by men IS a woman, then where do my experiences of being sexually victimised because I am a woman fit in?

Quite so.

OP no one has yet mentioned the case of the transman left in disbelief after being raped. The poor thing reported that despite being repeatedly told during the assault that his victim was a man, the rapist persisted with his PIV attack.

It was heartbreaking that the poor young transman genuinely believed that their gender identity over rode sex not only in their own eyes but also in those of a strange male sexual predator.

Terrifying naivety.