Therapist asking if I'm a man, woman or gender neutral.

[aweegc]

I got a feedback form from my therapist (clinical psychologist) yesterday. It's about how I feel things are going and how I feel I've had things explained to me or been treated. All fine. I've had it before but this time the last question (it's not obligatory to complete the form but if you do then you can't skip question) the last one was "Are you a man / woman /gender neutral? The very last page had a text box for extra comments. I used it and went to town. My therapist doesn't write these forms, but I was really pissed off.

The thing is, I'm having long term trauma therapy and the majority of those traumas are due specifically to me being - not identifying as - female. Of course, I know all the politics around all this, I've seen this question on forms (or similar) a hundred times, I've had rape threats because of my biological understandings etc, but to have this question in a therapeutic setting has completely thrown me. Especially when male violence is about to become a big part of our work.

I'm not even sure where I'm going with this post. I am trying to get out of a relationship that was 13 years of gaslighting. That feeling when you're being gaslighted and you're not sure what's going on, you're sure you're right but you no longer know where up is, who you trust etc is back.

If she believes that a man who identifies as a woman because he at least in part finds it sexually thrilling to be victimised by men IS a woman, then where do my experiences of being sexually victimised because I am a woman fit in? I feel that that man and I are definitely not the same, but I've just been categorised as the same in her eyes.

I actually ticked gender neutral and wrote - amongst other things - that I'm not that either but as I was forced to give an inaccurate answer, that was the one I chose.

If anybody can untangle my thoughts here I'd be most grateful. I'll be talking to her about the form next session anyway but I feel so "gaslighting confused" that I am not even sure I can explain why I feel gaslighted/gaslit. And it's extremely strange because I'm normally very, very clear about all aspects of this.

I'm also really fucking pissed off that because of a tiny minority of people - amongst whom the adult majority are men - my sex-based experiences and existence is undermined by no longer being sex-based.

Maybe I should have identified as "anything but biologically female" earlier in life, because then I'd not have been raped or sexually assaulted so much?

As a person who also does therapy I do recommend bringing the issue to your session. Therapists have been put in an awkward place with this ideology. Best case scenario you will deepen your therapeutic relationship through the discussion. But if you find out they are unwilling to think beyond a belief in gender ideology it's probably best you realise this now before you progress much further as they wouldn't be suitable for the work you need.

@SpudleyLass

And? I never said I agreed with them totally. Only that the question is insignificant and pointless to be upset by.

One and the same and always will be. The separation of them in your theory is pointless.

If sex and gender are the same, then there are only two 'genders' as well as only two sexes. So what does 'gender neutral' mean? That someone is sexless?

@Mouseonmychair

This is a standard form and a standard question. Seriously some people look for offence in everything. Just fill out the question as it states from the 3 answers. I don't know anyone who would be unable to answer.

No, it’s enforcement of an ideology. The form might as well have asked whether the OP had found Jesus, with a little box to tick saved/unsaved.

@SaltyPepper

Standard form who cares? No use being triggered by the politics of it. Some forms have a “rather not say” option as well. Again, who cares it does not matter.

The form is being used by a therapist treating somebody for sex related trauma.

‘Don’t be triggered’ and ‘Who cares, it does not matter’ aren’t really appropriate suggestions in the circumstances.

@SaltyPepper

Standard form who cares? No use being triggered by the politics of it. Some forms have a “rather not say” option as well. Again, who cares it does not matter.

And yet if you were saying that to a trangender person I think you'll find theyd consider consider you deeply offensive. Why are GC women's feeling not important?

OP was clearly upset by the form. Those are her feelings. How is coming on her thread and telling her she shouldn't be upset helpful?

Oh wait, they're not trying to be helpful.
More like making a traumatised woman feel worse to prove some kind of point.

@OldCrone

Means they believe they’re the other and get a sex change or whatever. No skin off mine.

In theory if this offends you that trans are given their own category you should be more offended if they weren’t - after all then they would actually be ticking that they are the gender they believe they are
And would be counted as that. Now how would you put a stop to that?

@SaltyPepper anyone can say they are trans. They don't need a sex change. My big burly husband could say he's a woman without doing anything else, and demand to be referred to as she/her.

It's all highly illogical.

Means they believe they’re the other and get a sex change or whatever. No skin off mine

There is no such thing as being able to 'change sex'. Or whatever. No sperm producer has ever been able to have an operation to be able to produce an egg. If you are going to dismiss the OP's trauma then at least do some research on the topic.

@SaltyPepper "gender neutral" isn't a category for trans people. It's not asking are you man/woman/trans.

[quote AssassinatedBeauty]@SaltyPepper "gender neutral" isn't a category for trans people. It's not asking are you man/woman/trans. [/quote]
And even if it did have a box for trans (GC people would think this more appropriate, otherwise whole) a transwoman might still just tick woman, because that's how they see themselves/want to be perceived.
Hence all the nonsense around calling women who were actually born female, c*s.
It's an interesting conundrum once you start looking into it.

*on the whole

[quote SaltyPepper]@OldCrone

Means they believe they’re the other and get a sex change or whatever. No skin off mine.

In theory if this offends you that trans are given their own category you should be more offended if they weren’t - after all then they would actually be ticking that they are the gender they believe they are
And would be counted as that. Now how would you put a stop to that?[/quote]
Are you saying that you think 'gender neutral' means the same as transgender?

Sex change? What do you mean by this? It is not possible for humans to change sex.

Do you think males who think they are women would tick 'gender neutral'? Perhaps you should ask some of them (but you should be aware that you will be called 'transphobic' for suggesting such a thing).

Do you not realise that some males are already often 'counted as' women - when they commit crimes for example, or when they want awards which are supposed to be for women, or want to compete in women's sports? But you're quite right that it's proving difficult to put a stop to that.

Are you seeing your therapist through the NHS or another service like that, or privately? As you said she didn't write it, I was just wondering if it's something she has been asked to get her clients to complete by the service.

Definitely talk to her about it and the feelings it brings up. Depending on how she works in general, I wouldn't expect her to reveal her own views about it though - much like a therapist wouldn't reveal which party they vote for or similar.

I'm also a trained therapist (not currently practicing) and the other side of this issue is unfortunately that I would feel worried about revealing my gender critical views in any work context in case the response from colleagues would be hostile. So, I wouldn't have the courage to address an issue like a form with this question with the service if I was working there for fear of losing my job.

@PaleGreenGhost

OP I would feel just the same as you. Shit like this can be re traumatising - genuinely, not in the hyperbolic way that term is often used.

Why? Because many women experience nearly as much trauma from the lack of response to their abuse /assault as they do from the actual event itself. Horrible events on their own don't always cause long lasting trauma if the victim is able to fight back (physically and or legally) or get away. Unfortunately for women, our physical size and our lesser status in society means we are often unable to fight or get away and are dismissed, disbelieved, shamed or persecuted if we attempt to prosecute.

The form was gaslighting the OP that gender ID is more important than sex to record. To suggest that "woman" is an identity choice and not an inescapable reality is victim blaming. It implies OP could have opted out of the abuse by choosing to be male.

The question produces useless data in this instance. It doesn't give information about the trans population. It merely blurs statistics so some males are included with females and vice versa. This should not be happening. How can we build proper services and initiatives if the truth is obscured?

Completely agree with all of these points.

No, it’s enforcement of an ideology. The form might as well have asked whether the OP had found Jesus, with a little box to tick saved/unsaved.

YES!

@OldCrone

I mean that they have undergone what used to be called and as far as I know (or care) still is called a sex change operation. Then they tick that gender/sex on forms. It’s really quite simple, I’m not meaning it in the philosophical battle of the ages of feminist vs trans ideology that your suggesting, just literally someone who’s had a sex change operation/s or says they are the opposite sex.

And again, I’m not referring to trans in sports. I’m referring to the simple fact that if you have to enter your details on a form and look even remotely like a woman or a man (despite being born the other) you can easily enter your details as either female or male. There is literally nothing you can do about that.
Same as trans or whatever in women’s toilets and dressing rooms - if they look remotely like a woman and especially if they dress feminine there is literally nothing you can do to stop them from going there as they probably have been for decades already (if not longer) - nothing that is short of doing physicals on everyone entering every public toilet and dressing rooms everywhere all the time, which obviously won’t be happening. So you might as well get over it.

And again, I’m not referring to trans in sports. I’m referring to the simple fact that if you have to enter your details on a form and look even remotely like a woman or a man (despite being born the other) you can easily enter your details as either female or male. There is literally nothing you can do about that.

And where does gender neutral fit into your theory?

Oh my dear. If it helps - I have talked to my therapist about this too, in the context of finding it extremely difficult when people refuse to acknowledge material reality and force you to be complicit in their interpretation of it - especially where to do so denies damage that was done to you. Might that be part of what's upsetting you? The form assumes that asking about gender identity first is more inclusive, but for you it's deeply exclusive and wounding. But there's no space for you to say that. You had to give a wrong answer, in a free-text box!

Perhaps give some thought to how you would like to use this in a therapeutic setting. Be angry. That's good. You don't need to be able to speak calmly about this, you don't need to go in with the answers or to be 'nice' to your therapist. This experience has been traumatic for you and her job is to hold that trauma and anger and help you find a way through it to reach insight.

If, for whatever reason, she can't do that for you, then you can challenge her on it. That is your right and role. Again, her job is to hold it and help you work through it. It's a bit scary, but if she's good she will be able to do it.

I don’t want to derail the OP thread so will merely observe that assuming a TW or TM needs a “sexchange” to be trans is deeply transphobic

OP I completely understand - either they think gender and sex are the same which is worrying or they subscribe ti gender ideology which is also worrying and also tone deaf when dealing with someone who has suffered sex based violence

The last time I checked
'gender' in the dictionary referred to an expectation or a role.

So, there are all kinds of 'gender expectations' out there, positive and negative for all of us, regardless of how we define ourselves.

Surely the point is, that we, and this includes therapists but actually therapists in particular, should be concerned with opening up possibliities and new ways of behaving which enable us to be happier and healthier whatever we choose.

I don't think I would have appreciated the boxes either.
But I would probably have simply answered

'prefer not to say'

I understand some of your feelings as I left an emotionally and financially abusive relationship.

Domestic and other abuse is about power dynamics and how they play out in society. There is still so little understanding of this with some professionals.

If you have suffered abuse in my view you can often recognise such structures at fifty paces.

@beigebrownblue

All kinds of groups protest and petition to change dictionary definitions these days. One year the dictionary will follow the feminist theory sex/gender definitions, then it will follow the trans ones and so on. Claiming a dictionary definition as a true meaning is virtually meaningless today and its meaningless victory to get a meaning changed when no one really agrees on it anyway.

@PaleGreenGhost

OP I would feel just the same as you. Shit like this can be re traumatising - genuinely, not in the hyperbolic way that term is often used.

Why? Because many women experience nearly as much trauma from the lack of response to their abuse /assault as they do from the actual event itself. Horrible events on their own don't always cause long lasting trauma if the victim is able to fight back (physically and or legally) or get away. Unfortunately for women, our physical size and our lesser status in society means we are often unable to fight or get away and are dismissed, disbelieved, shamed or persecuted if we attempt to prosecute.

The form was gaslighting the OP that gender ID is more important than sex to record. To suggest that "woman" is an identity choice and not an inescapable reality is victim blaming. It implies OP could have opted out of the abuse by choosing to be male.

The question produces useless data in this instance. It doesn't give information about the trans population. It merely blurs statistics so some males are included with females and vice versa. This should not be happening. How can we build proper services and initiatives if the truth is obscured?

100% agree with this.

The rush to inclusivity has in some cases blurred the lines and seems to deny (however unintentionally) the fact that certain experiences amd traumas are inescapably pegged to someone's biological sex.

As mentioned, good idea to raise this with your therapist.

Bloody ridiculous world we live in.