Therapist asking if I'm a man, woman or gender neutral.

[aweegc]

I got a feedback form from my therapist (clinical psychologist) yesterday. It's about how I feel things are going and how I feel I've had things explained to me or been treated. All fine. I've had it before but this time the last question (it's not obligatory to complete the form but if you do then you can't skip question) the last one was "Are you a man / woman /gender neutral? The very last page had a text box for extra comments. I used it and went to town. My therapist doesn't write these forms, but I was really pissed off.

The thing is, I'm having long term trauma therapy and the majority of those traumas are due specifically to me being - not identifying as - female. Of course, I know all the politics around all this, I've seen this question on forms (or similar) a hundred times, I've had rape threats because of my biological understandings etc, but to have this question in a therapeutic setting has completely thrown me. Especially when male violence is about to become a big part of our work.

I'm not even sure where I'm going with this post. I am trying to get out of a relationship that was 13 years of gaslighting. That feeling when you're being gaslighted and you're not sure what's going on, you're sure you're right but you no longer know where up is, who you trust etc is back.

If she believes that a man who identifies as a woman because he at least in part finds it sexually thrilling to be victimised by men IS a woman, then where do my experiences of being sexually victimised because I am a woman fit in? I feel that that man and I are definitely not the same, but I've just been categorised as the same in her eyes.

I actually ticked gender neutral and wrote - amongst other things - that I'm not that either but as I was forced to give an inaccurate answer, that was the one I chose.

If anybody can untangle my thoughts here I'd be most grateful. I'll be talking to her about the form next session anyway but I feel so "gaslighting confused" that I am not even sure I can explain why I feel gaslighted/gaslit. And it's extremely strange because I'm normally very, very clear about all aspects of this.

I'm also really fucking pissed off that because of a tiny minority of people - amongst whom the adult majority are men - my sex-based experiences and existence is undermined by no longer being sex-based.

Maybe I should have identified as "anything but biologically female" earlier in life, because then I'd not have been raped or sexually assaulted so much?

All kinds of groups protest and petition to change dictionary definitions these days.

That is not how a dictionary works. It reflects current usage.

This is the world health organisation defining gender:

www.who.int/health-topics/gender

You still have explained what you think gender neutral means in the context of sex.

Haven’t explained

Not a great first impression from a therapist

Just wanted to offer support to whatever you do OP.

The fact that someone thought it was appropriate to use ‘lol’ in their response to you has blown my mind. The implication that a womens response to their trauma as a result of rape is ‘lol’ is the lowest of low. Even for MN.

Remember OP - it is the therapist job to contain you. It is not your job to make her/him feel better, that’s why they have supervision. So please try not to tie yourself up in knots about how to say it. If they get it great if they don’t they may not be the right therapist for you. And that’s ok too.

@TwinklyBranch

As PP said, it is a standard form. Just skip the question if it bothers you that much.

Did it not cross your mind that it is precisely because it's a bloody standard form that it is an issue?

Forma like this used to be as anodyne as possible so as not to set off anyone's alarm bells, neurosis etc

Now it seems that this is no longer the case and forms are designed with alternative versions, let alone with reasons to collect specific data. Some questions are there merely to assuage the voices of the perma-insulted.

OP. Tell your therapist exactly what you said here. Ask them why that question exists... As in what basis acceptable under GDPR Regs that are collecting that data?

There has to be a reason for every scrap of data collected.

@merrymouse

Actually no it doesn’t. Groups or individuals literally push for changes on the basis that it reflects current usage - when it fact it reflects their current usage. There is no wide ranging survey of the way the general public uses the word which is then taken into account by the dictionary.
Meanings are purely pushed by academics and theorists and often don’t accurately reflect genuine usage of most people at all. The WHO is no different.

So again changing a dictionary definition when it’s a contested theory is a fleeting and pointless “victory” for either feminist leaning or trans theory leaning academics - neither of who’s definitions of sex/gender really have much to do with the wider public perception. What is hoped is that by changing the dictionary definition people minds will eventually change. This is a delusion which overestimates the value of such cheap trickery.

@Mouseonmychair

This is a standard form and a standard question. Seriously some people look for offence in everything. Just fill out the question as it states from the 3 answers. I don't know anyone who would be unable to answer.

I'd be unable to as the question taps into an ideology I don't identify with. Biologically I am a woman but if you introduce the concept of gender neutral you are not asking a biological question and I am not a woman. If you're going to ask questions like this you need to put an 'other, please specify' box or some such as it's not OK to force people to put their identities in boxes defined by others. That's the whole rationale for these questions isn't it? But in reality this just protects the feelings and identity conceptualizations of a minority whilst pissing all over most people's. This is not about looking for offence any more than a trans person not wanting to say they are a mean if they have xy chromosomes and it's a bit disingenuous to pretend it is.

Just to be clear. The question was:
^"Are you a:
Man
Woman
Gender neutral"^

I had to select one or I couldn't complete the form (and it was the last question so I wanted to submit).

The very last page had a box to write in. I wrote I was unhappy at the conflation of sex and gender in that.

I couldn't just skip the question.
I couldn't write anything else (ie "prefer not to say".)

I'm reading the replies. Maybe some posters would have more compassion if I said I was a trans woman assigned white and male at birth. Just wondering how they would think I'm not a trans woman anyway, as all it takes, apparently is me saying I am and then I am - it's not sex-based!

But really thank you did the support everybody else. I can't believe what this question has done to me. It's been 10 days since the depth of the gaslighting I've experienced has been revealed. I've had just over a week FREE of feeling like I don't know which way is up. To be back in that place sucks and your replies help.

The question is important because it’s helping you identify and verbalise your feelings about your gender and how you identify yourself. This is all helpful to explore with your therapist. That is why the question is there . It’s not about how you answer it - it’s about what it brings up for you . Which is clearly a lot.
Feel the anger and work out where it should be directed. I don’t think you are angry with your therapist - but it might feel like that.

[quote SaltyPepper]@merrymouse

Actually no it doesn’t. Groups or individuals literally push for changes on the basis that it reflects current usage - when it fact it reflects their current usage. There is no wide ranging survey of the way the general public uses the word which is then taken into account by the dictionary.
Meanings are purely pushed by academics and theorists and often don’t accurately reflect genuine usage of most people at all. The WHO is no different.

So again changing a dictionary definition when it’s a contested theory is a fleeting and pointless “victory” for either feminist leaning or trans theory leaning academics - neither of who’s definitions of sex/gender really have much to do with the wider public perception. What is hoped is that by changing the dictionary definition people minds will eventually change. This is a delusion which overestimates the value of such cheap trickery.[/quote]
No, you fundamentally misunderstand the purpose of a dictionary.

www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/how-does-a-word-get-into-the-dictionary

public.oed.com/how-words-enter-the-oed/

And you still haven't explained what 'gender neutral' means if gender only refers to sex.

@merrymouse

Oh gee from Miriam Webster itself. Like I said highly subject to bias. If you really believe most people use the word gender that way you are deluded.

@merrymouse

It means someone who doesn’t think they are either gender specifically/feels unsure or doesn’t want to say. I’m not writing the forms - I’m telling you your theoretical feminist interpretation of all this is just that and not how most people think of it. It is what it is. I don’t give a shit if gender neutral is on the forms but obviously some people did and now they can tick that. Who cares.

If you are expecting your therapist and some random form to share your highly personal views on sex/gender and all that jazz you will probably be disappointed more often than not. The question is can you get therapy from someone who doesn’t share your exact feminist politics? Because it’s obvious that this has upset you greatly and probably should be worked through.

@Sunnysideup999

The question is important because it’s helping you identify and verbalise your feelings about your gender and how you identify yourself. This is all helpful to explore with your therapist. That is why the question is there . It’s not about how you answer it - it’s about what it brings up for you . Which is clearly a lot. Feel the anger and work out where it should be directed. I don’t think you are angry with your therapist - but it might feel like that.

Not convinced by that. The therapist or organisation will have a contract with the client re confidentiality and re data. They will explain precisely when confidential information must be shared (eg in the event of danger) and precisely what data is gathered how it is stored and why.

Is this form only going to be viewed by the therapist or is the data going to be used at any other point or input by any other staff? Feelings about one's gender ID, lack of gender ID or about gender, the method by which women are oppressed, strike me as confidential information that should not be shared beyond the therapist without explicit consent. Data on sex is needed by the organisation in order to plan services and monitor equality.

@Sunnysideup999

The question is important because it’s helping you identify and verbalise your feelings about your gender and how you identify yourself. This is all helpful to explore with your therapist. That is why the question is there . It’s not about how you answer it - it’s about what it brings up for you . Which is clearly a lot. Feel the anger and work out where it should be directed. I don’t think you are angry with your therapist - but it might feel like that.

Why are you assuming that your gender has anything to do with how you identify yourself? What it brings up fir many people is a sense of anger that women are being oppressed, intimidated and harmed. There is no answer which allows that response. I think the anger might well actually be at the therapist who, if they thought this was an appropriate question, are very much part of the problem.

@SaltyPepper

If you are expecting your therapist and some random form to share your highly personal views on sex/gender and all that jazz you will probably be disappointed more often than not. The question is can you get therapy from someone who doesn’t share your exact feminist politics? Because it’s obvious that this has upset you greatly and probably should be worked through.

Good point. If I were the OP I would find a new therapist. I could not trust someone who buys into this ideology as I think it shows a lack of critical thinking.

Sex is a protected characteristic BTW SaltyPepper. Gender reassignment is a separate protected characteristic. This question gathers accurate data on neither.

[quote SaltyPepper]@merrymouse

Oh gee from Miriam Webster itself. Like I said highly subject to bias. If you really believe most people use the word gender that way you are deluded.[/quote]
Merriam Webster, and also the Oxford English Dictionary.

The word 'gender' has been used 'that way' in literature and speech for a very long time. Some people also use the word 'gender' to refer to sex, but in this instance, it's clear that they are referring to gender because they offer a 'gender neutral' option.

Maybe you would find a dictionary helpful?

The question is important because it’s helping you identify and verbalise your feelings about your gender and how you identify yourself.

No it isn't because it doesn't recognise that it is possible to feel dysphoric or be gender non conforming and also accept the reality of your sex.

@Sunnysideup999

The question is important because it’s helping you identify and verbalise your feelings about your gender and how you identify yourself. This is all helpful to explore with your therapist. That is why the question is there . It’s not about how you answer it - it’s about what it brings up for you . Which is clearly a lot. Feel the anger and work out where it should be directed. I don’t think you are angry with your therapist - but it might feel like that.

Bollocks. I mean, sure, if OP is in therapy because of gender issues then it would be a useful discursive discussion point. But OP is in therapy for sex based trauma.

I've also got a history of sexual abuse. That abuse happened because I am female. A woman. Biologically. What I 'identify' as has nothing to do with that and therefore my therapist has no need to know which 'gender', if any, I identify as. Unless I choose to share that information.

@merrymouse

Again sex being a “protected characteristic” is meaningless in terms of her reaction to this form and really doesn’t mean a whole lot anyway.

[quote SaltyPepper]@merrymouse

Again sex being a “protected characteristic” is meaningless in terms of her reaction to this form and really doesn’t mean a whole lot anyway.[/quote]
You seem confused. I haven't mentioned protected characteristics.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Maybe you would find this thread helpful saltypepper. You give the impression that you have stumbled across this subject and don't know much about it.

@merrymouse

I’m aware of it. You’ve just gone so far into the bubble with like minded people you have no idea how most people perceive you or this argument between feminists and trans ideology.