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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Woman's Hour 18/11/2021 Nancy Kelley CEO of Stonewall

451 replies

Abitofalark · 17/11/2021 23:32

From the programme notes:

"Nancy Kelley is CEO of Stonewall, the largest LGBT rights charity in Europe. She speaks to Emma about her organisation’s work and gives her reaction to recent high-profile withdrawals from Stonewall’s Diversity Champions workplace inclusion scheme, including the BBC."

Hmmm...yes, we've heard - and dissected - the previous pronouncement from that quarter about the BBC pulling out of the Stonewall scheme. Let's see what waffle and spin come out in this interview.

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RedCarpetRebellion · 20/11/2021 09:07

@borntobequiet

EB: Do you believe that literally or metaphorically, that trans-women are women? NK: Literally.

That’s the bit that stopped me in my tracks when I heard it and again when I read it (thanks DDD from me as well).

Because either the word woman doesn’t mean what it should, or literally doesn’t mean what it should, or she’s deluded.

Almost the worst thing about all this nonsense is the (deliberate) destruction of descriptions of objective reality by undermining the meanings of words.

EB should have referred to the definition of woman in the equality act and got NK to answer it based on that.

I hope this is a two parter like pp suggested and that’s one of the points she comes back to.

lanadelgrey · 20/11/2021 09:07

That finally remark about having the ‘hat on’ seems to be a pointed way of saying well you’ve finally turned up to talk Stonewall.
I remember Jane Garvey and Fi Glover having a small and very guarded talk in an early episode of Fortunately, so back in 2019, about how hard it was to interview on the subject when it was either no debate or not being in the same room as say Nic Williams etc. So I guess the back room staff on WH will have also told EB what is was like

ErrolTheDragon · 20/11/2021 09:09

@DadDadDad

My pleasure. Here I am getting flowers on the feminism board of Mums net discussing Woman's Hour.

Am I, ... am I, a woman? Shock

No, no, I'm not, but I can still listen to Woman's Hour, right? Blush

Smile

No, you're not a woman, but you deserve a (mercifully virtual) 'This is what a feminist ally' T-Shirt.
ErrolTheDragon · 20/11/2021 09:09

...missed off the "looks like" duh

nopuppiesallowed · 20/11/2021 09:27

@RedCarpetRebellion Great point, there! And a thank you from me @DadDadDad.

BlueBrush · 20/11/2021 09:31

May I say as an irrelevant aside, I'm really tickled by the fact that whenever anyone links to the interview on Twitter, the thumbnail you get is the women from Pride and Prejudice (sort of). They must be loving the publicity - good for them!

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0011lrs

Ekofisk · 20/11/2021 09:44

You can see some clips of the interview on the Woman’s Hour Twitter:

twitter.com/bbcwomanshour/status/1461717903384854532?s=21

ScrollingLeaves · 20/11/2021 09:44

Thank you Emma Barnett
& thank you Nancy Kelly for agreeing to be interviewed by her.

ScrollingLeaves · 20/11/2021 09:46

I mean because of Stonewall now having to say the word ‘mother’ does not have to be removed from documents ( even though it m has come too late).

DadDadDad · 20/11/2021 10:38

[quote BlueBrush]May I say as an irrelevant aside, I'm really tickled by the fact that whenever anyone links to the interview on Twitter, the thumbnail you get is the women from Pride and Prejudice (sort of). They must be loving the publicity - good for them!

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0011lrs[/quote]
Somewhere in there, is a joke around "Pride and Prejudice" being Stonewall's new slogan. Grin

Iwishihadariver · 20/11/2021 10:48

And it's grateful thanks from me 

WarriorN · 20/11/2021 16:05

I'm listening to weekend woman's hour with Anita. She's reading out the background of the bbc leaving stonewall . Which I find interesting.

WarriorN · 20/11/2021 16:10

(That Anita is reading it out! )

Helleofabore · 20/11/2021 16:10

Anita Rani? Is she tW aw? I look forward to seeing what she tweets about it.

WarriorN · 20/11/2021 16:22

Yes!

It was the excerpt around JKR.

WarriorN · 20/11/2021 16:24

Women's refuges etc.

I still haven't listened to the whole thing; have they ever pointed out the numbers of TW who don't have surgery?

Which I absolutely agree with as I don't believe anyone should undergo such a massive, irreversible, procedure.

WarriorN · 20/11/2021 16:28

@Helleofabore

Anita Rani? Is she tW aw? I look forward to seeing what she tweets about it.

Nothing so far. She's not hugely active on Twitter. And obviously also covering the equally more problematic issues re Yorkshire Cricket.

WarriorN · 20/11/2021 16:38

They've not read out any listener responses.

I think a letter to feed back is needed re this interview with Nancy.

Abitofalark · 20/11/2021 17:35

Phew, DDD. Tremendous work and in double quick time. Thank you.

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Ekofisk · 20/11/2021 18:11

@Helleofabore

Anita Rani? Is she tW aw? I look forward to seeing what she tweets about it.
She’s very TWAW.

Did a fawning interview with Paris Lees about Paris’s book back in May and got grumpy with listeners on Twitter when it was pointed out it was Woman’s Hour, and maybe just an hour for women to talk about women’s stuff wasn’t too much to ask.

DadDadDad · 20/11/2021 21:46

In passing, I just wanted to pick out this quote from NK in the interview:

So, gender critical beliefs and all kinds of beliefs have always been protected under the Equality Act and it’s absolutely possible for people to hold gender critical beliefs without expressing them in a way that’s harmful to trans people

So, I infer that the CEO of Stonewall doesn't equate the stating of GC beliefs with transphobia. That is maybe a useful response to those who do make that kind of crude equation.

This is an interesting one. Because I suspect that simply saying to a trans person that they can't change the sex they were born with (while acknowledging sympathetically their desire to live as the other sex) would be considered by some to be a horrible attack on that person.

Challenge for NK (or anyone else!): give an example of a GC belief expressed in a way that trans people will respond "I don't agree with that, but it's not harmful to say it" - because that's a level of calm debate that I find hard to imagine.

MonsignorMirth · 20/11/2021 22:16

@MonsignorMirth

Stonewall ceo says it's possible to hold gender critical views and express them in a way that is not transphobic.

I really wish she'd been asked for an example of what you can say that is gender critical but isn't transphobic. For the record.

That's what I said!
DadDadDad · 20/11/2021 22:29

Apologies, @MonsignorMirth , there are a lot of comments on this thread, and I haven't kept up!

MonsignorMirth · 20/11/2021 23:27

No need to apologise - obviously it's a good question! Grin

RedToothBrush · 20/11/2021 23:34

Think we might see Kelley doing a few more interviews given this new story:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10225111/Stonewall-brands-lesbians-sexual-racists-raising-concerns-sex-transgender-women.html
Trans lobby group Stonewall brands lesbians 'sexual racists' for raising concerns about being pressured into having sex with transgender women who still have male genitals

For many, it was a brave and long-overdue airing of an important and distressing subject: a painstaking investigation into claims that predatory trans women have been pressuring lesbians for sex, published on the BBC News website.

But a leaked email shows that the influential trans lobby group Stonewall attempted to suppress the investigation before it had even been published – and made the extraordinary claim that debating the issues was equivalent to ‘sexual racism’.

and

Yet now it has emerged that months before the article appeared Stonewall’s chief executive Nancy Kelley wrote to the editorial director of BBC News to denounce Lowbridge’s work in an apparent attempt to get her piece stopped.

In her email, Kelley suggested that the BBC article would end up being ‘transphobic’ because it represented trans women as ‘sexual predators’, which was a ‘central anti-trans argument’.

She further complained that the ‘highly toxic’ cotton ceiling issue was ‘analogous to issues like sexual racism’.

And although she acknowledged that in sexual relationships ‘consent is paramount and we all want who we want’, she added that ‘structural oppression can influence who we want’.

It is understood that it took many months of editorial discussions before the article was published on October 26.

Stonewall has appeared to confirm that changes were made to the original piece, although it remains unclear whether this was as a direct result of the leaked email, sent in September 2020.

Nor is it known whether the editorial director of BBC News at the time, Kamal Ahmed, took any action based on the specific concerns raised by Kelley. He was made redundant in February.

There are many, many questions here.

Not least who leaked the email. And why.

Interestingly...

The BBC received 4,819 complaints in the days following publication, while 5,520 messages praised its coverage.

I think Kelley has to address why she doesn't think lesbians and gay men should retain protected status on the basis of sex and how changing the definition of homosexual to homogendered isn't homophobic.

Journalists need to start asking this head on.

Changing the meaning of words is having an affect on protected groups. Why aren't organisations doing impact assessments on how changing language impacts their staff/clients/service users?

There's a lot of legal shit to unpack here, which accusing lesbians of being bigotted doesn't change the law or protect Stonewall from misleading institutions and businesses by indoctrination or a culture of fear.

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