And the section on J K Rowling and expressing one's views
EB: It’s about actually if people feel they can also talk in the current climate how they wish to. Is J K Rowling transphobic?
NK: I’ve no idea, no idea. I’ve never met her. I think she’s definitely said things—
EB: You don’t have to meet somebody. You’ve talked about, it’s an expression of their views. She’s expressed her views. On Twitter, she’s talked about how this very set of views are her views. I can give you direct quotes, but they are very well known, and again there’s another reason I’m asking you about this because “I stand with J K Rowling” for another story is trending on Twitter as we speak. Is she a transphobe for saying it the way that she has said it?
NK: I think that I have read things that J K Rowling has said that are harmful in terms of their impact on the trans community. Whether – for me – whether you would describe a person as transphobic is less important than understanding their harm.
EB: But I need to know. Our listeners need to know what the CEO of Stonewall thinks about one of the most famous and successful women from this country. Is she a transphobe or not?
NK: I think, as the CEO of Stonewall, that she’s expressed some views that can cause real harm and I also think she’s expressed some views that don’t. And I think—
EB: What has she said that has caused or could cause harm? This really strikes to the heart of it. Because you’ve actually changed what you’ve said. It’s not about the way she said it, you’re actually now saying what she said can cause harm.
NK: Yes, so when we talk about ideas that are based on the concept that trans people are automatically, particularly trans-women, typically a risk to cis-women, which some, not all, of J K Rowling has said historically has pointed in that direction, then I think that does cause harm to the trans community, when such a prominent person expresses those views. Because it reinforces the idea that trans people are dangerous or are to be feared. And whether that’s J K Rowling’s intention, I’ve got no idea, I’m sure it isn’t actually, I’m sure it’s not her intention to cause any kind of harm.
EB: But what if those assertions are based on actual cases, so not saying all, but saying this is the concern with having people who are not biologically female in refuges. ‘Cause that’s a lot of what she’s talked about.
NK: So, I mean, if we go back to talking about domestic abuse and refuge settings, we’ve got a situation where many refuges run on a trans-inclusive basis and many don’t, and use the Equality Act exemptions. And from my perspective, the important thing is that everybody is able to access a service. I guess what J K Rowling has said is that her preference were she in that situation again – I know that she’s got a history of domestic abuse which she’s talked about – then what she would want is to be in a refuge that excluded trans-women, or that’s how I would understand what she’s said publicly on the topic. And those services exist.
EB: So, what’s wrong with her saying that?
NK: I think that when we are saying it in a way that implies that it’s not about our own feelings of safety, but about a risk that’s posed by another person, it underlines – it’s not in a vacuum, is it?
EB: But those two things are the same.
NK: I don’t think they are, actually.
EB: No, but, you can say that they are. But she’s going to say she’d prefer that. It’s very good to have an example. I’m sorry she’s not here to respond - we’ll of course ask for her take on this. She is allowed is she not – I’ll ask you – to say that? Based on her experience.
NK: Of course.
EB: But you’re also saying she can’t say that because it’s going to cause harm because it’s going to point people to the idea that those individuals are violent and to be feared. So which is it, Nancy?
NK: So there’s a world of difference between a woman who is seeking access to a domestic abuse refuge and saying, you know, “I don’t feel safe around trans-women, can you accommodate me in that way?” And whatever we think about that, whether we think it’s justified or unjustified, she should get support. Everybody who needs that support should have support, and they should feel safe getting it. There is a world of difference between that and saying not in that situation, not when you are—
EB: But she was imagining she was in that situation. She’s a writer, she’s a person, she’s allowed to imagine.
NK: Sure, but, but, extrapolating into an abstract situation that you are not in, when you have such a big reach, I think it would be helpful to be aware that that reinforces stereotypes about trans-women.
EB: We haven’t in this actual bit of our discussion been able to distil what is transphobic? Because you’ve just told me a woman is standing at the door of a refuge and she wants to only have biologically born women in that refuge with her. That’s okay, because she needs the service and she hasn’t got millions of followers. But if she happens to have experienced abuse – or not, but in J K Rowling’s situation she had – and has millions of followers, she can’t say the same thing because it will have potentially created a view of trans-people that could be harmful.
NK: I’m not saying, and I don’t think I have said that anyone can’t say things. People can believe and they can say whatever they choose, right, and that’s what—
EB: But the question was what’s transphobic?
NK: But fundamentally, this is where the balance between our free speech, all of our rights to speak freely and express our views, and the protection of people with protected characteristics comes into play. And there are some contexts, like the workplace, where they come into play and they can interact often quite closely, and there are other contexts, like the kind of public square and debating issues in public where that’s a much less tight coupling. You know, nobody is going to bring an Equality Act case, I hope nobody’s going to bring an Equality Act case about this interview and for anything I’ve said, for instance. But if you are asking if some of the views, you know, if some of the views that J K Rowling has expressed, do they echo very common forms of transphobia? Yes.