DIANE ABBOTT AND SEX WORK ARTICLE IN THE TIMES

[Mollyollydolly]

Diane tweeted about sex work
'Horrific that Durham University is offering training to students who want to be sex workers part-time. Sex work is degrading, dangerous and exploitative. Uni should have nothing to do with it'.
If you really want to depress yourself look at the responses to her tweet. I really don't understand what went wrong on the left, how is prostitution progressive? I just don't get it, some of the replies from the likes of Femi and blue tick Independent journalists make me feel sick. They sound like pimps.

Saddest of all are the young women who have been gaslight into thinking this is a good career choice. So depressing.

"So a lecturer can purchase one of his students"

No because slavery is illegal.

If you're asking "can a lecturer book an appointment with a student of adult age who is a sex worker for his/her services", tbh I'm not sure if Uni policies would permit that (there might be some sort of rule that says no sex between staff and students, paid or not). You'd have to check with the Uni.

"I think there should be a warning from the University that anyone who is prostituting themselves will be kicked out"

You want Uni's to discriminate against students of adult age who happen to be a sex worker?

I thought we lived in a tolerant era where we don't(or shouldn't) discriminate?

"Calling it prostitution and not 'sex work' might be a way forward"

Using potentially demeaning terms like "prostitution/prostitute" increase stigma, and stigma tends to increase risk of harm. That is the opposite of what the aims are here.

"Calling it prostitution and not 'sex work' might be a way forward"

Using potentially demeaning terms like "prostitution/prostitute" increase stigma, and stigma tends to increase risk of harm. That is the opposite of what the aims are here.

Calling it prostitution is telling it like it is: young girls selling the use of their vagina's and mouths as f*ck holes for penis-havers. Penis-havers are also involved in sex work, but mostly as pimps.

But yes, Maragarita, please continue to debate why somen should sell the usage of their bodies for degrading and dangerous work instead of universities actually doing stuff like supporting students with finding jobs and housing and providing a good future.

I feel like this is just more of the same old exploitation - like in the 1970s when some people claimed that 'rent boys' were making their own choices so we didn't see the truth: that they were young, vulnerable boys being eased into prostitution and abused by predatory men.

Using potentially demeaning terms like "prostitution/prostitute" increase stigma, and stigma tends to increase risk of harm. That is the opposite of what the aims are here.

Weird how apparently "stigma" increases harm. What is it that "stigma" does?

I feel that men paying women for unwanted sex cause harm.

I thought university was about giving women opportunities in life, not guiding them towards the actions of desperate women who have no option.

@sanluca

"Calling it prostitution and not 'sex work' might be a way forward"

Using potentially demeaning terms like "prostitution/prostitute" increase stigma, and stigma tends to increase risk of harm. That is the opposite of what the aims are here.

Calling it prostitution is telling it like it is: young girls selling the use of their vagina's and mouths as f*ck holes for penis-havers. Penis-havers are also involved in sex work, but mostly as pimps.

But yes, Maragarita, please continue to debate why somen should sell the usage of their bodies for degrading and dangerous work instead of universities actually doing stuff like supporting students with finding jobs and housing and providing a good future.

I get what PP is saying. Prostitution is quite demeaning, accurate or not (depending on what the individual in question is actually doing)

Insisting that people/women who are paid for sex acts are referred to as prostitutes just sounds like you're having a go at them, like they must wear the hat of shame

I don't get it. If you care about how they're treated, why the insistence that they must call themselves "prostitutes"?

Men have seen "prostitutes" as lesser being and used it as an excuse to abuse and kill them. It does sound quite othering and if someone refers to them-self as a sex worker I don't see the issue.

Especially if a person/woman (even if they are a minority) says they chose to do videos, say - insisting that they be called a prostitute doesn't come across as that compassionate really

@TeamRex

Using potentially demeaning terms like "prostitution/prostitute" increase stigma, and stigma tends to increase risk of harm. That is the opposite of what the aims are here.

Weird how apparently "stigma" increases harm. What is it that "stigma" does?

I feel that men paying women for unwanted sex cause harm.

I thought university was about giving women opportunities in life, not guiding them towards the actions of desperate women who have no option.

Of course it isn't the cause of violence, but the word prostitute definitely comes across as shameful, immoral, dirty (maybe some would agree). It does have those connotations. I do see the point that "sex worker" is a bit more humanising.

Calling prostitution 'sex work'

As Julie Bindel puts it

"If prostitution is “sex work”, then by its own logic, rape is merely theft. The inside of a woman’s body should never be viewed as a workplace."

"When prostituted women become “employees”, and part of the “labour market”, pimps become “managers” and “business entrepreneurs”, and the punters are merely clients. Services helping people to exit are irrelevant because who needs support to get out of a regular job? Effectively, governments wash their hands of women under legalisation"

"Supporting the notion that prostitution is “labour” is not a progressive or female-friendly point of view."

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/30/new-zealand-sex-work-prostitution-migrants-julie-bindel

The inside of a woman’s body should never be viewed as a workplace

Thank you for this. That’s it in a nutshell for me basically.

Also most people who support sex work are more liberal so they're hardly going to be making racist comments.

Ahaha 🤣 I sincerely admire your naïveté!

Men of all political affiliations have always supported “sex work”. Pimps and punters support “sex work”. If you think these are lovely liberal anti-racist types then I have got a bridge to sell you.

It never ceases fo amaze me just how far credulous people - but especially credulous young women - are taken in by this silly idea that “supporting sex work” is some kind of progressive feminism. You’re all dupes and shills for men who commodify women’s bodies and women’s pain, and you only benefit and enrich people who are not lovely progressive types, but some of the worst of society.

It’s like celebrating “civilised” high class drug dealing because a few women might earn some easy cash selling cocaine to bankers.

"Calling it prostitution is telling it like it is: young girls selling the use of their vagina's and mouths as fck holes for penis-havers"*

That isn't going to help sex workers.

"They should probably warn students that they’ll be unable to do certain jobs"

This is a valid point. Stigmatising sex work can indeed lead to employers favouring an applicant who doesn't have a background in the sex industry over one who does. All the more reason for being open and talking about it, preferably in an appropriate manner without vulgar language. Which is what some Uni's are now starting to do.

Do people honestly think that calling it 'sex work' rather than 'prostitution' is going to make men start seeing the women they have purchased for sex as human beings?

That that is what is going to stop women being harmed?

Please.....

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet

it often boils down to money. Counselling will not house or feed a student. A one off hardship payment of £500 max will not sort out all of third year.

And yet, generally, male students seem to get by OK? Yes there are male sex workers but 'sex work' is a massively disproportionately female dominated 'industry'.

Is it because in the end generally those male students are going to end up in the better paid careers?

Do they get by ok? I've certainly had male students struggle significantly, especially the one who were first in the family to go to uni.

Not sure why young women struggle more. Could it be exacerbated by families supporting their sons at uni more readily than than their daughters (I have seen that in action in the extended family and in several recent conversations that left me - pre-WW2 attitudes to education for women).

@MargaritaPie

"Calling it prostitution is telling it like it is: young girls selling the use of their vagina's and mouths as fck holes for penis-havers"*

That isn't going to help sex workers.

"They should probably warn students that they’ll be unable to do certain jobs"

This is a valid point. Stigmatising sex work can indeed lead to employers favouring an applicant who doesn't have a background in the sex industry over one who does. All the more reason for being open and talking about it, preferably in an appropriate manner without vulgar language. Which is what some Uni's are now starting to do.

You think girls doing escorting or onlyfans for extra cash are going to be putting it on their CVs? What delusions are you living in?

Maybe street prostitutes are going to be including it in all the applications to corporate jobs that they make?

There is some very weird stuff you believe about the sex industry, Margarita, which sounds literally like fantastical wish-fulfilment to those of us who live and work in the real world.

The idea that most women in prostitution are doing it just for extra cash while they finish their law degrees, or hop into high flying jobs, is Belle de Jour fantasy of the highest level of delusion. On each of these threads everyone always points this out to you, and you continue pursuing this narrative of normalising prostitution as just another lovely job that women have an option to do. Why are you so invested in this idea?

Seen on twitter:

Does Eton teach sex work as an option for its pupils?

If not why not?

All those sticking up for "careers in sex work" - Would you want your daughter to choose that "career?"

Would you want your daughter to be forced via financial hardship into that "carreer?"

Of course it isn't the cause of violence, but the word prostitute definitely comes across as shameful, immoral, dirty (maybe some would agree). It does have those connotations. I do see the point that "sex worker" is a bit more humanising.

By seeing the women involved as human does it stop the men using them as objects? No?

The stigma of prostitution doesn't harm women, the use of women as objects by men does.

And universities acting as though prostitution should be a normal option for students to get through university is highly damaging to all students.

"there are male sex workers but 'sex work' is a massively disproportionately female dominated 'industry"

About a third of sex workers(escorts) are male. You can see for yourself if you search an escort site such as Punternet (NSFW of course) and search for male escorts and then for female escorts and observe the ratio.

People tend to think sex workers are all female because of the media (which seems to think male sex workers don't exist).

I'm speculating here but I think it's reasonable to presume there are male sex workers who are University students too.

"Does Eton teach sex work as an option for its pupils"

No and neither are Durham or Leicester Uni's. Looks like you still haven't got it.

@WarriorN

Seen on twitter:

Does Eton teach sex work as an option for its pupils?

If not why not?

Exactly. Suggesting to students that prostitution is an option, means some will take it on and as JB says "The position favoured by every sex trade survivor I have interviewed is: prostitution is inherently abusive", so why would an Education provider normalise it?

@MargaritaPie

"Does Eton teach sex work as an option for its pupils"

No and neither are Durham or Leicester Uni's. Looks like you still haven't got it.

And why is that?

Perhaps it's you who hasn't 'got it'.

www.streetlight.uk.com/the-facts/

Thought I would have a rummage on the internet for facts and views

This seems prettty stark

Also suggestions that ratio is closer to 1;9 male to female than the 1:2 stated below

@MargaritaPie

"there are male sex workers but 'sex work' is a massively disproportionately female dominated 'industry"

About a third of sex workers(escorts) are male. You can see for yourself if you search an escort site such as Punternet (NSFW of course) and search for male escorts and then for female escorts and observe the ratio.

People tend to think sex workers are all female because of the media (which seems to think male sex workers don't exist).

I'm speculating here but I think it's reasonable to presume there are male sex workers who are University students too.

Around 88 per cent are women

prostitutescollective.net/facts-about-sex-work-sheet/

ellyarrow.wordpress.com/2021/11/06/disproportionate-and-unique-health-risks-for-women-in-prostitution/

This is from Twitter around the discussion being had on this thread. Prostitution has specific, disproportionate and unique impacts on female health - comparing it to other forms of ‘work’ is facile, disingenuous and reductive.

[quote andyoldlabour]StillWeRise

Here is the tweet

twitter.com/HackneyAbbott/status/1459136551460511750?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet[/quote]
Seems to be a lot of men defending sex work, strange isn't it.

*"Around 88 per cent are women

prostitutescollective.net/facts-about-sex-work-sheet"*

Results will vary depending on what criteria you use. I did a test just now on the active (logged in within the past 2 weeks) escorts on adultwork for the UK.

Female: 13,294
Male 3,325

That means as of now just over 25% of active escorts for a sample of 16,619 are male. That's 1 in 4.