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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

DIANE ABBOTT AND SEX WORK ARTICLE IN THE TIMES

348 replies

Mollyollydolly · 12/11/2021 18:22

Diane tweeted about sex work
'Horrific that Durham University is offering training to students who want to be sex workers part-time. Sex work is degrading, dangerous and exploitative. Uni should have nothing to do with it'.
If you really want to depress yourself look at the responses to her tweet. I really don't understand what went wrong on the left, how is prostitution progressive? I just don't get it, some of the replies from the likes of Femi and blue tick Independent journalists make me feel sick. They sound like pimps.

Saddest of all are the young women who have been gaslight into thinking this is a good career choice. So depressing.

DIANE ABBOTT AND SEX WORK ARTICLE IN THE TIMES
OP posts:
WarriorN · 13/11/2021 10:28

There seems to be subtle but incredibly important differences in language used by Nordic Model now when describing a handbook for universities and this toolkit, which highlight the issues Diane is trying to bring up.

From the link upthread, my bolding:

Supporting students impacted by the sex industry: A handbook for universities – The launch

Late last year, the University of Leicester launched their ‘student sex work’ policy and toolkits and announced that they had received funding from the ESRC to roll these out to universities all around the UK. Many people are worried that this approach could be interpreted as sanctioning or even promoting a deeply sexist and damaging industry and will lead to more vulnerable young people being drawn into the industry and harmed and disadvantaged by that experience. There is also concern about the impact of this approach on students’ understanding of consent and on the general relations between the sexes, at a time when girls and young women are subject to staggering levels of sexual harassment and sexual crimes.
To address these concerns, Nordic Model Now! has developed a handbook for universities that presents an alternative and more holistic approach – which we are launching at this event. It provides a realistic understanding of the sex industry, the short and long-term impact of involvement within it, and how best to support those who are caught up in it.

It looks at the responsibilities universities have under the Equality Act 2010 to work to prevent the discrimination and further disadvantaging of students who are young, female, LGBT+, disabled, or racialised, and to work towards improving the relationships of those from all the protected characteristics, including between women and men generally. It argues that any efforts to bring about positive change on university campuses in respect to sexist attitudes and behaviour are doomed to failure unless programmes directly address the sex industry and porn consumption.

Speakers
Kathleen RichardsonProfessor of Ethics and Culture of Robots and AI, De Montfort University, and Director of Women Ethics Robots AI and Data (WERAID)
Lily – Lily is a survivor of prostitution and sex trafficking and the violence intrinsic to these experiences. She is also a person-centred therapist working with victims and survivors of sexual violence. Lily’s professional interests are in the role of power and oppression within sexual violence, working with the mental distress following sexual violence, and how we as a society influence these processes.
Andrea Heinz – Andrea is a Canadian feminist who spent 7 years in the licensed commercial sex trade as an Escort, Dominatrix, and Brothel Owner. Now a sex trade Abolitionist, she works to educate both professionals and the public on sexual exploitation and the harm in “sex work” ideology. Andrea is happily married with three children and completing a degree in Governance, Law & Management.

Questions
There will be an option to submit questions during the event, but you are welcome to email in advance any questions you would like the panel to consider. Please put ‘Webinar Question’ in the subject line and email it to [email protected]. Time constraints mean, however, that we will be limited in how many questions we can address.

Petition
If you are concerned about the Leicester approach and how it is being rolled out UK-wide, please consider signing our petition calling on them to scrap it.

Sonex · 13/11/2021 10:30

This is so sad. I went to university so I could be financially independent and would never have to consider prostitution as a way out of poverty. Sad sad sad.

The women I know who are prostitutes or do onlyfans are financially controlled by men, usually their exes, and have no financial control over their lives. And now we're encouraging/normalising bright girls doing it from day one. Sad sad sad.

andyoldlabour · 13/11/2021 10:33

FindTheTruth

"this reminds me of the male sex worker in Canada who ran LGBT youth clubs opening doors to 30+ year old males to access female teens, before coming to the UK to work in Stonewalls Trans office where they tried to get a black lesbian barrister fired."

Morgan Page. I remember being horrified when I read about that person.

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/alison-bailey-releases-the-stonewall

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/why-the-lgb-alliance-exists

twitter.com/bluskyeallison/status/1175739790181974017

FindTheTruth · 13/11/2021 10:46

@BraveBananaBadge

There's a tone in those replies to Diane Abbott that you don't see with other MPs, even those regularly abused on social media. 'Auntie'? I've never seen that used pejoratively before but suppose it's a handy shorthand that manages to be racist, misogynist and ageist in just one word. She does well not to tell any of them to fuck off.

Do they really, literally not see 'sex work' as any different to any other paid employment or are they just hard of thinking? Is this a generational issue to them?

Men with a built in 'misogyny multiplier' against sex, race, sexual orientation, disability, age, maternity, religion. And yes the handy shorthand 'Auntie' is very telling
jezziej · 13/11/2021 11:02

@merrymouse

I'm totally confused as to what is going on. Durham say they want to support students providing sex services to do it safely.

The problem is that there is no safe way to provide sex services for money.

There is if it's just anonymous pictures and videos online on only fans or whatever. I think some posters need to realise there's a difference between prostituting on the streets vs the way people do it these days.

Still, I'm baffled as to why a university would even get involved. Doesn't show them in the best light, and they should've known it'd be controversial. Should've just advertised counselling sessions for struggling students, without going into details and targeting it to sex workers

VladmirsPoutine · 13/11/2021 11:06

And yes the handy shorthand 'Auntie' is very telling

@FindTheTruth What is it telling? Confused I've been (along with my brothers) referring to my parents' female friends as 'auntie' all my life. Have I inadvertently been ageist and sexist and indeed racist?

jezziej · 13/11/2021 11:06

@KimikosNightmare

That seems to be all about the normalisation of prostitution

If you are already sex working or planning on starting a career in sex work, it is paramount that you keep yourself safe at all times

See, I get supporting people already doing it. But what were they thinking here? Even if they're trying to be neutral this does kind of sound like promotion ("thinking about starting a career")

I don't think putting videos out is the end of the world but it's so weird of them to add that in like it's a job in engineering. Literally putting it in people's minds, when they weren't even considering it before which is a step too far

Sonex · 13/11/2021 11:07

There's no difference. it's all prostitution. It's all objectifying women. It's all bad for women and for their later self-esteem.

Just because you or someone you know has sold a few pictures and been relatively unscathed, that doesn't undo the great harm done to vulnerable women and girls elsewhere by men buying women's bodies.

CatherinaJTV · 13/11/2021 11:08

@VladmirsPoutine

There are forums for sex workers, sexual health clinics they can go to without judgement, buddy systems in place and all manner of tools that keep sex workers safe these days. I would rather they had open access to these facilities than go 'underground' where they are at greater risk (because there's always a risk regardless) of being exploited and harmed. Sex work is a fact of life - I've known a few of them in my time and they're all better for having access to these spaces than without.
this!
CatherinaJTV · 13/11/2021 11:10

@Sonex

This is so sad. I went to university so I could be financially independent and would never have to consider prostitution as a way out of poverty. Sad sad sad.

The women I know who are prostitutes or do onlyfans are financially controlled by men, usually their exes, and have no financial control over their lives. And now we're encouraging/normalising bright girls doing it from day one. Sad sad sad.

maybe demand that university education be free for every student, so the financial hardship that is a major driver of sex work is taken out the equation?
FindTheTruth · 13/11/2021 11:10

Universities, Youth Groups or anywhere with young people are prime recruiting grounds under seige by powerful well funded pro-prostitution lobbyists promoting prostitution cloaked in 'inclusiveness' and jumping on any bandwagon including LGBT. Julie Bindel knows what a threat they are and is called a SW*RF as they shout 'whorephobia'
lesbianandgaynews.com/2021/04/julie-bindel-teenagers-coming-out-as-gay-do-not-deserve-to-be-told-that-selling-sex-is-the-same-as-celebrating-their-sexuality/

CatherinaJTV · 13/11/2021 11:10

@Sonex

There's no difference. it's all prostitution. It's all objectifying women. It's all bad for women and for their later self-esteem.

Just because you or someone you know has sold a few pictures and been relatively unscathed, that doesn't undo the great harm done to vulnerable women and girls elsewhere by men buying women's bodies.

sorry to be that person - but male students do sex work as well...
jezziej · 13/11/2021 11:11

@Sonex

There's no difference. it's all prostitution. It's all objectifying women. It's all bad for women and for their later self-esteem.

Just because you or someone you know has sold a few pictures and been relatively unscathed, that doesn't undo the great harm done to vulnerable women and girls elsewhere by men buying women's bodies.

It's not about objectification because do women not post revealing scantily clad pictures anyway? We're all free to objectify ourselves off we please, individuals aren't responsible for that, really. Anymore than Instagram models posting pictures are responsible for other people's body image.

And it definitely is better if you can post faceless bikini pics (or more) without having to be out there meeting people, fact.

Does that mean it should be promoted? No, not really, definitely not by a university where students could be on low incomes and vulnerable.

KimikosNightmare · 13/11/2021 11:11

@BraveBananaBadge

There's a tone in those replies to Diane Abbott that you don't see with other MPs, even those regularly abused on social media. 'Auntie'? I've never seen that used pejoratively before but suppose it's a handy shorthand that manages to be racist, misogynist and ageist in just one word. She does well not to tell any of them to fuck off.

Do they really, literally not see 'sex work' as any different to any other paid employment or are they just hard of thinking? Is this a generational issue to them?

Good point re "Aunty"
CatherinaJTV · 13/11/2021 11:13

Still, I'm baffled as to why a university would even get involved. Doesn't show them in the best light, and they should've known it'd be controversial. Should've just advertised counselling sessions for struggling students, without going into details and targeting it to sex workers

it often boils down to money. Counselling will not house or feed a student. A one off hardship payment of £500 max will not sort out all of third year.

KimikosNightmare · 13/11/2021 11:14

@VladmirsPoutine

And yes the handy shorthand 'Auntie' is very telling

@FindTheTruth What is it telling? Confused I've been (along with my brothers) referring to my parents' female friends as 'auntie' all my life. Have I inadvertently been ageist and sexist and indeed racist?

I know "disingenuous" does a lot of heavy lifting these days, but how disingenuous that post is. There's a world of difference between the usage you are referring to and the way it is being used in the replies to Diane Abbot.
undetetected · 13/11/2021 11:15

I don't think anyone's being racist to Diane here. Why would white props call her an auntie? It's black people, speaking as one, because we generally call elders auntie/uncle

Also most people who support sex work are more liberal so they're hardly going to be making racist comments. Although ageism/sexism is a different matter

JaneyHenderson · 13/11/2021 11:17

chng.it/bqPjw7LN6J

Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 13/11/2021 11:24

Sex work is a fact of life

Why? Why is it a fact of life? Because men continue to be brought up to see women as nothing more than a slab of meat that they can pay to stick their dick into whenever they want and then go and review her on the Internet like she is an object they have bought off Amazon? Why the fuck is that 'a fact of life'? Who says so?

VladmirsPoutine · 13/11/2021 11:25

There's a world of difference between the usage you are referring to and the way it is being used in the replies to Diane Abbot.

I posted under DA's tweet and there really isn't a 'world of difference'. If you don't understand something then say it. Don't speak of what you know nothing about.

BraveBananaBadge · 13/11/2021 11:28

Vladmirs and Kimikos - as I skim read those Twitter replies I thought it was a reference to the US 'Aunt Jemima' stereotype. Thanks for your explanation as it very much changes how some of her critics were addressing her. As previously stated I stand corrected.

Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 13/11/2021 11:28

it often boils down to money. Counselling will not house or feed a student. A one off hardship payment of £500 max will not sort out all of third year.

And yet, generally, male students seem to get by OK? Yes there are male sex workers but 'sex work' is a massively disproportionately female dominated 'industry'.

Is it because in the end generally those male students are going to end up in the better paid careers?

abcdeg · 13/11/2021 11:34

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet

it often boils down to money. Counselling will not house or feed a student. A one off hardship payment of £500 max will not sort out all of third year.

And yet, generally, male students seem to get by OK? Yes there are male sex workers but 'sex work' is a massively disproportionately female dominated 'industry'.

Is it because in the end generally those male students are going to end up in the better paid careers?

I wouldn't t say so, plenty of male student commit suicide and have depression and struggle with money. Who knows, may e more would turn to sex work but there's not much of a market unless they're doing it for/with men so it's not seen as an option
ChattyLion · 13/11/2021 11:52

Not RTFT but in these crazily misogynistic political times I am very happy to see any MP and especially someone from the Labour Party, speaking up about the dangers of sex ‘work’. These attempts to minimise and normalise are a massive red flag.

ScribblingPixie · 13/11/2021 12:13

@undetetected

I don't think anyone's being racist to Diane here. Why would white props call her an auntie? It's black people, speaking as one, because we generally call elders auntie/uncle

Also most people who support sex work are more liberal so they're hardly going to be making racist comments. Although ageism/sexism is a different matter

Someone called her 'mum' too. Is that usual too? It read really oddly.
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