Grayson Perry interview

[Shewholovedthethebanhills]

I thought his answer to the question on gender stereotypes was refreshing: “As a transvestite, I’m heavily invested in gender stereotypes, because otherwise I wouldn’t have a barrier to cross. It would just be dressing.”

Really? You feel you've been expected to wear 'something a bit smarter' by your publisher? Bollocks.

Still totally confused why you're reacting like this! And I didn't say anything about publishers?

At home I and most artists/writers/illustrators/etc I know, are scruffbags. Sometimes in our pjs and for artists, obviously, they may also be messy and have paint on them. You see GP looking like this in some pics of him working in a studio.

So of course you are expected - by the venue/host, and society in general - to be a bit smarter than that for a visit or appearance, conference, whatever. It's not a written rule and no one demands it but if you turned up in your PJs or really scruffy it would be a bit awkward. I still can't fathom why this is a matter for "for goodness sake" and bollocks"!

Even though he's famous and famously eccentric, and therefore can get away with wearing what he likes, I do think most people in GP's position - a well-known artist visiting a school - would wear something pretty normal.

I mean yes for a massively high-profile awards ceremony, the met ball, a TV appearance etc, dressing up and a bit of prancing is much more the norm. Not a school visit.

Good for you.

On the whole I like Grayson Perry, that might be wrong, if he turns out to be someone who abuses people I will eat my words, and hat.

Blimey. You asked.

This isn't about "does someone abuse people - bad - or not - good". As has been said, thinking it's not appropriate for someone to indulge their self-as-little-girl-based fetish on a school visit is not the same thing as saying they are an abuser. It's not that black and white. It's about being inappropriate, making people uncomfortable, and since that's part of the fetish, using poeple for that purpose - and when it's children being used in that way, that's dodgy.

If a primary school teacher went to a job interview and said "I like being a primary school teacher because being in the classroom with little kids is a turn-on" that wouldn't be OK, even if they weren't an actual physical abuser, it's just boundary-crossing and not good safeguarding. It's in a similar vein. He used that occasion to do something that he himself says is a fetish and arousing, and prioritised that over the kids themselves.

Good for you.

Were you expecting me just admit I wasn't an artist or writer and didn't have a clue what I was talking about?

Equally I find any sort of fetish that involves unwitting members of the public completely unacceptable. It's like a form of indecent exposure or exhibitionism - part of the fetish is making other people uncomfortable and therefore it is a form of sexual threat.

Many men get a sexual thrill out of making women uncomfortable. Male dominance is a massive part of pornography.

Having a public fetish that involves making people uncomfortable, including children, in order to become aroused is bad enough. Telling everyone you've got it and the reason why you wear a dress is to cover your erection, and people still invite you to schools is difficult to believe.

It gives the term patriarchy a whole new level.

Are people really saying that because they think he does nice art, and they like the way he talks, he should be allowed to practice his sexual fetish in public on unknowing people.

On a feminist board??

He doesn't do nice art. He does horrible art.

Artists should be rounded up and put in a safe area really.

I mean, what is going on here? You want artists to be stopped making art?

Wow Wings that's one giant of a straw man.

@WingsOfGahan

I mean, what is going on here? You want artists to be stopped making art?

I would like (some) men to stop sexually exploiting everyone around them. I couldn't care less what job they do.

I am replying to what Datun said - because they think he does nice art.

I'd like that too.

Not all acts can be justified on the basis that they are art or are making an artistic statement. As a society we operate within the boundaries of moral and legal rules. Often the two reflect each other, sometimes they are adrift. Art will often operate at the boundaries. Even if GP's fetishistic dressing is part of his art doesn't necessarily mean it's morally ok to involve nonconsenting people in his fetish. And certain types of fetishistic behaviour involving nonconsenting others (flashing - not implying GP does this) which society has deemed unacceptable are specifically criminalised. I recognise he makes art and tbh i can't get too worked up about the pots but I find the specific act of obtaining sexual pleasure through others' discomfort is morally wrong.

Datun, I could not agree more that men should stop sexually exploiting women.

If someone feels abused by an encounter they should make a complaint. (And we all know how well that goes.)

I have searched online and all the pictures of GP on school visits show him wearing perfectly appropriate dresses that are in no way “sexual” or fetish, for want of better words. AFAIK he has ever said that he finds children sexually arousing. In what way is he a safeguarding concern?

He is someone who challenges gender stereotypes. His art is original and different. I would be thrilled if he visited my kids’ schools.

There is plenty of art for adults of all kinds, including performance art, which isn’t suitable for primary school children.

Surrealist film is interesting, but you wouldn’t show the eyeball cutting in Un Chien Andalou to children; nor suggest they read Beloved or A Clockwork Orange, or stage a live performance of Sarah Kane during assembly. Grayson’s dressing up is part of his performance art - he makes that absolutely clear. If adults are OK with it, that’s fine for them; but it isn’t no platforming or censorship to suggest that it is not suitable for a school.

I think when people are coming for artists and writers, we are in trouble. Artists and writers are not just pissing around trying to be famous, they are trying to get in to the depths of things. You all might not think that matters but it does matter.

Lots of men identify as children or babies. Nappy fetishes are fairly prevalent. You don't go inviting these men onto maternity wards.

Well, quite - I think these sort of encounters often cause a sort of low level discomfort which people feel unable to express or report, even though it's probably a majority view that involving other people who have not consented in your fetish is morally (if not always legally) wrong. Over time, it contributes to the erosion of boundaries even though society wants to believe those boundaries are important.

It is a very selfish sexuality and I find the tendency towards escalation quite troubling too. He can be honest about it and a talented potter and also a deeply problematic person.

@Yellownotblue

I have searched online and all the pictures of GP on school visits show him wearing perfectly appropriate dresses that are in no way “sexual” or fetish, for want of better words. AFAIK he has ever said that he finds children sexually arousing. In what way is he a safeguarding concern?

He is someone who challenges gender stereotypes. His art is original and different. I would be thrilled if he visited my kids’ schools.

Have you read the thread?

He finds the idea of little girls sexually humiliating. And sexually arousing, if he dresses as a parody of one himself. And he finds the idea of the general public, including little girls, being shocked by himself dressed like this also sexually arousing.

And you would be thrilled if he did all of this in front of your children?

@wings please would you stop presuming everyone commenting on this is not an artist, and therefore has no right to comment. I am a published writer with a sideline in a form of visual art myself eyeroll even if i weren't it wouldn't render me incapable of criticising other people's behaviour.

Nobody is coming for artists and writers. A lot of art involves questions relating to violence or pornography. Some of the greatest pieces of Western art and literature are, however, totally unsuitable for children, including many parts of Shakespeare, Greek Tragedy, and so on. Funnily enough, rape, murder, getting your tongue or eyes cut out, and so on, aren’t appropriate for children to be exposed to; but it doesn’t mean you’re cancelling Shakespeare if you think Coriolanus isn’t a suitable play for primary school children.