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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Grayson Perry interview

202 replies

Shewholovedthethebanhills · 09/11/2021 10:50

I thought his answer to the question on gender stereotypes was refreshing: “As a transvestite, I’m heavily invested in gender stereotypes, because otherwise I wouldn’t have a barrier to cross. It would just be dressing.”

OP posts:
Blackberrycream · 09/11/2021 18:08

@KathleenWho

I did used to admire GP but now I find him a little disturbing I admit it's refreshing that he acknowledges that he is a cross dressing man and that it is a fetish but, given the clothes he wears and the presentation, I find that fetish disturbing. I also don't like others being forced to feed the fetish given that shocking other people is part of it
I think it’s important to live and let live as long as actions aren’t impacting on others. GP is really not presenting himself as a woman. I find him really interesting. He seems really thoughtful and very intelligent. He certainly hasn’t been involved in any of the recent nonsense. It’s important to react against those attacking women and threatening their rights and spaces but I really hope this doesn’t lead to nastiness against people such as GP who have had nothing to do with that.
lazylinguist · 09/11/2021 18:10

Anyone who parades their fetish around in public like that gives me the heebie jeebies, however intelligent, honest or talented they might be. I'm not sure I see his honesty as terribly admirable tbh, except that it has the side effect of revealing the unsavoury motivations behind some behaviours which the public should be aware of.

Thissucksmonkeynuts · 09/11/2021 18:15

I understand he's said he wears the flouncey skirts because it hides his erection well. Does anyone know where this is published? My h was agast when I said this was the case, he absolutely loves GP, me, not so much.

MrsFin · 09/11/2021 18:37

@lazylinguist

Anyone who parades their fetish around in public like that gives me the heebie jeebies, however intelligent, honest or talented they might be. I'm not sure I see his honesty as terribly admirable tbh, except that it has the side effect of revealing the unsavoury motivations behind some behaviours which the public should be aware of.

I wonder if he'd be so successful as an artist if he just wore chinos or jeans and a hoodie.

borntobequiet · 09/11/2021 18:40

He’s broadened the bandwidth of potentially annoying absolutely everybody, which is impressive.
I’m sure it’s deliberate.

Datun · 09/11/2021 19:00

I understand the appeal of him being honest. But it doesn't mitigate what he does, in my opinion.

He dresses as a little girl, wearing skirts to hide his erection. And he's got involved in being around children, as far as I recall, in some kind of awards capacity or something - when he admits that dressing as a child gives him a boner!

I understand there is a relief to be had from someone who is quite upfront about his fetish, but for ffs, it doesn't make it more palatable.

He has said that because he has become famous and everyone recognises him dressed as 'Claire', the sexual arousal has diminished as he cannot shock.

It's a safeguarding nightmare. He's not a national treasure, he's a pervert, who is just honest about it.

And, I could be wrong, but it wouldn't surprise me, in the slightest, if the honesty was part of it.

Let me tell everyone what I am, and they will still love me.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 09/11/2021 19:09

Yep! That's pretty much where I am with the idea of him.

borntobequiet · 09/11/2021 19:22

And, I could be wrong, but it wouldn't surprise me, in the slightest, if the honesty was part of it.
Let me tell everyone what I am, and they will still love me.

This is something we seem to see quite a lot nowadays.

Shewholovedthethebanhills · 09/11/2021 19:24

Well I definitely retract the webchat proposal! I wasn’t aware of all the children’s clothing fetish erection-hiding stuff.

OP posts:
BitMuch · 09/11/2021 19:52

Grayson Perry chose to wear his fetish clothes in primary schools where he sat extremely close talking to little girls when he was invited as the sole artist by Kate Middleton for two Clore Foundation charity visits intended to encourage the disadvantaged primary school children from Barlby Primary School and Oxford Gardens Primary School to be more confident doing art. He does not normally wear his fetish clothes to interviews or most of the time. imgflip.com/i/4rbfnm, imgflip.com/i/4rbeah, imgflip.com/i/4rbj2k, imgflip.com/i/4rely7. www.artlyst.com/news/duchess-of-cambridge-meets-grayson-perry-in-the-art-room/. www.artlyst.com/news/art-room-launches-new-ladbroke-grove-studio-with-patron-grayson-perry/.

He is a self described 'proud fetishist' autogynephile and autopedophile, with many other paraphilia like headscarves, plaster casts, suffocation and rubber. Both his favourite artists, Darger and Bellmer, are only known for drawing and sculpting naked little girls being tortured in sexualised ways. He has said very disturbing things with a focus on 'little girls'. I'll find some quotes.

Datun · 09/11/2021 19:59

@BitMuch

Grayson Perry chose to wear his fetish clothes in primary schools where he sat extremely close talking to little girls when he was invited as the sole artist by Kate Middleton for two Clore Foundation charity visits intended to encourage the disadvantaged primary school children from Barlby Primary School and Oxford Gardens Primary School to be more confident doing art. He does not normally wear his fetish clothes to interviews or most of the time. imgflip.com/i/4rbfnm, imgflip.com/i/4rbeah, imgflip.com/i/4rbj2k, imgflip.com/i/4rely7. www.artlyst.com/news/duchess-of-cambridge-meets-grayson-perry-in-the-art-room/. www.artlyst.com/news/art-room-launches-new-ladbroke-grove-studio-with-patron-grayson-perry/.

He is a self described 'proud fetishist' autogynephile and autopedophile, with many other paraphilia like headscarves, plaster casts, suffocation and rubber. Both his favourite artists, Darger and Bellmer, are only known for drawing and sculpting naked little girls being tortured in sexualised ways. He has said very disturbing things with a focus on 'little girls'. I'll find some quotes.

Indeed.

People get blindsided by the fact that he's upfront about it. Like it makes it okay!!!

Datun · 09/11/2021 20:00

autopedophile

Yup. (Self confessed!)

BitMuch · 09/11/2021 20:19

'Claire went to the Venice Biennale recently in a little-girl dress - a kind of bipolar Miss Muffet, all pie-crust frills, baby bunny appliqué and button-down shoes. 'People ask why do I do it,' he says. 'It's a turn on!'

''Sometimes,' he says, 'I wonder if we live our lives so that we can fulfil our deepest sex fantasies. That they shape our lives.'

In 1979, [Perry] saw the Outsiders Exhibition at the Hayward Gallery and came across the work of Henry Darger, who remains his favourite artist. His subject matter is mainly known for its obsessive depictions of [naked] little girls suffering various forms of torture.

For Perry, Darger's wounded little girls represented a violent fantasy world where children were a metaphor for a sub-personality that lurks within the complex adult. 'My research into him by chance coincided with Claire regressing into her child image, so it felt very poignant,' he says. Injured children re-occur as a motif in his work. His latest pot, The Plight of the Sensitive Child, shows children in frilly frocks taking crack.

Paedophilia horrifies him, but so do the knee-jerk reactions that serve to cordon the subject off and disallow discussion. 'I like the idea of diffusing rampant paedo-paranoia,' he says.

Claire isn't in a separate compartment,' she [Phillipa Perry] points out. 'His compulsion is as much a part of him as his blue eyes.

'Flo,' who is 11, is unsurprised by any idiosyncrasies that her father might be perceived as having. 'She just rolls her eyes.' When asked recently by a friend what he put on his pots, she calmly replied, 'Child abuse mainly', and when her father commented that she was an 'arty' child, she replied that she did no know whether that was a compliment or not.

Claire is also developing a new agenda. Perry hopes she will encourage others to live out their fantasies.

'She' may have achieved a new incarnation in time for the Turner hoopla. 'She has changed,' he says. 'I am no longer interested in deceiving people into thinking I'm female. And I've stopped being embarrassed.' amp.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2003/sep/21/art.

'Grayson Perry, a transvestite potter with a strong line in pornographic and paedophile imagery, won the Turner Prize yesterday.

He has described it [transvestism] "as a turn on"

Of his daughter's feelings, he says: "She's cool too, although I don't like to dress up when she's about." www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/3608048/Transvestites-shocking-pots-claim-victory-in-Turner-Prize.html

'Does he still find it [transvestism] sexually exciting? “Oh yes,” he shouts excitedly. “Yeah!” But there is a problem, he says, with being a very public tranny. You mean, you couldn’t be seen at the Royal Academy in a nice frock and a stiffy? He nods enthusiastically. “You couldn’t do it. If I could manage it, I’m sure I’d be thinking how to do it.'

'However wholesome they looked, the pots illustrated scenes of child abduction, sadomasochism, masturbating teddies, sweet little girls with penises hanging from their dresses.'

'But why, for instance, the Little Bo Peep look? “It’s a classic look. I used to call it the crack cocaine of femininity. It’s the furthest from the male macho look you could get. It’s vulnerable, it’s young, it’s humiliating.' www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2014/oct/04/grayson-perry-dress-tranny-art-who-are-you-tv.

“I’m on an up. My life is f---ing charmed,” he says with a touch of defiance. “I have enormous fun doing what I want. I’m very lucky.”

When he started wearing women’s clothes as a youth, it was a furtive, dangerous act. The risk of discovery and humiliation gave him a sexual thrill. Dressing up as Claire is still a turn-on, he insists, but the circumstances have changed. "I like dressing up. I’m a transvestite. So, I get excuses to dress up all the time. It’s fabulous.”

amp.smh.com.au/culture/art-and-design/provocative-artist-grayson-perry-centrism-is-now-an-insult-20191126-p53e55.html 2019.

"It was being a fetishist though of course I had no idea what that was then. Adults do not realise that kids have a sexual life.” And then came the women’s clothes, which began when he “borrowed” his sister’s dresses.

It depicts an angel-like figure with an erect penis beside Claire, in a dress and, with a halo above her head, patting the angel on the shoulder. “This pot was about my acknowledgement of Claire as a central plank of my creative drive,” he explains.

“Claire is not my alter ego. She is a man in a dress doing things a man does.” And, for the record, Perry never makes his pots or plates dressed as Claire. “That would be far too messy.” His deep cackle reverberates around the gallery.
thecritic.co.uk/the-critic-interview-grayson-perry/ 2020

foxgoosefinch · 09/11/2021 20:19

He is a self described 'proud fetishist' autogynephile and autopedophile, with many other paraphilia like headscarves, plaster casts, suffocation and rubber. Both his favourite artists, Darger and Bellmer, are only known for drawing and sculpting naked little girls being tortured in sexualised ways. He has said very disturbing things with a focus on 'little girls'. I'll find some quotes.

Urg. Hans Bellmer was an exceptionally disturbing artist. I don't doubt there is artistic impetus to his work. I have seen it displayed many times, and it has a certain mesmeric power. But it is undeniably fetishistic, misogynist, dark, transgressive and really, to be brutally honest, quite evil. For anyone wanting to know more, take a look at some of his "poupees".

BitMuch · 09/11/2021 20:33

'I ask him if he dresses up only for performance. [He is dressed normally in white shirt and jeans.]

GP: “No, it’s not performance ever.I dress up ’cause I want to. The ideal transvestite experience is walking down the street with a mirror held in front of you" “Dressing up is partly about the right sort of attention." "It’s the emotional scenario of being overpowered and humiliated that’s the turn-on."

You are typically identified as a sort of Alice in Wonderland figure. [In the past few years Grayson has repeatedly posed for press photographs dressed as an idealised kind of Victorian girl, in knee-length blue dresses and a blonde wig with a bow.]

GP: "Alice is the most famous incarnation of that look.”

Her world is also sinister and strange.

GP: “It doesn’t harm to have those associations.”

You wouldn’t get this conjunction of innocence and sex in a modern kid because they are too knowing. There are modern kids in your work but most of the children doing anything outrageous are distanced in time.

GP: "One thing I like about what I call the toilet-door symbol [the outline of the female seen outside public lavatories] is that it is universally understood. Go to any country in the world and draw that keyhole shape and they’ll say ‘little girl.'

Middle-class little girls.

GP: “No!”

Isn’t it a middle-class outfit, with the white socks and black shoes?

GP: “In England. But African and South American girls, even from poor families, have that silhouette when they go to school.”

Is dressing up as a little girl a way to access paedophilia safely?

GP: "Dressing up is partly about the right sort of attention. Little boys don’t get the kind of attention for just being which girls get. Nobody says to a boy, ‘You look lovely today, my precious."

Don’t they? My parents said things like that to me.

GP: [He looks blank.] “Not now. It’s all about doing now. You played football well.”

How awful. It must be related to the current neurosis about paedophilia. I’m thinking about that general anxiety today among men, especially in the Anglo-Saxon world, with regard to touching children who aren’t their own, which has had the particular effect of isolating boys from love.

“Oh yes—which is weird and very damaging. For a boy to say he likes classical music or likes the teacher or likes studying is virtually impossible now.”

GP: “Contact between older and younger is how knowledge is passed on. And it was a good experience for me. My earliest sexual experience happened when I was about eight."

Do you know the work of Hans Bellmer?

GP: "Yes, I like it. He’s the first explicit perv artist in the modern canon.”

www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/graysonperry

BitMuch · 09/11/2021 20:55

journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0956797616677082

'To receive his prize, Perry wore a fetching lilac satin dress with a lime-green collar and bow, a size-18 version of a little girl's party dress patterned with bunnies and hearts and the word "sissy". It was just a tiny bit creepy, which was exactly what Perry intended.

"One of the reasons I dress up as a woman is my low self-esteem," he told the press, "to go with the image of women being seen as second class. It's like pottery. That's seen as a second-class thing too."

Philippa beamed and glowed in a red bustier and black ribbon choker; Flo was a typical 12-year-old in a skull-and-crossbones T-shirt. They clasped hands and smiled and hugged each other as if the large man in their midst were not wearing the kind of costume you associate with paedophile fantasies'
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/skirting-the-issue-81906.html

BBC: Tr*nnying is a verb? It means dressing up, crossdressing?

GP: Yes, for pleasure.

BBC: Cynics might say it's great publicity, without Claire your transvestite identity, you'd be a potter. But to be a transvestite potter is so much more exotic.

GP: Yes it is good publicity, you're right, but I don't do it for publicity. I'd be doing it anyway, I've been doing it since I was 13 in the privacy of my own home. And there is an element of exhibitionism in it, in that I want people to see me dressed up. I want the reaction, for whatever reason. I want to fantasise about being humiliated or maybe I just want people to coo over me.

BBC: But what is the general reaction? Britain in 2006 likes to present itself as an open and tolerant society, is it?

GP: Yes. A lot of the time I hear people complaining about prejudice, transvestites in particular. Well, I don't get it because I walk into a shop and I'm nice. I give good eye contact and I'm polite. How do you behave dressed up is the sort of thing I ask, because until you have good social skills you can't start complaining about prejudice.

GP: Transvestism is a fetish and it is part of the spectrum of kinky sex. It's a fascinating compulsion to have. I think the channels of my creativity were laid down through sexual fantasy.

BBC: You say it's a compulsion but there's a part of me that thinks there's something going on with you that is just enjoying shocking people.

GP: I refute that accusation entirely. I mean the Daily Mail, when I won the Turner Prize, tried to 'in' me, with the same argument.
www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p03js3g5

'The transvestite ceramic artist Grayson Perry says he loves to dress in frills, lace, leather and rubber but he also likes a nice headscarf

I get my ideas from sexual fantasies. These are mainly about the clothes that would be most embarrassing for me to wear. I imagined myself winning the Turner prize dressed as a little girl and, hey presto.' 'www.thetimes.co.uk/article/my-life-in-fashion-grayson-perry-xwf6czs7zst

'Perry's transvestism is, he has always maintained, deeply linked to his fantasy of being a little girl. He says he loves it when people cosset and pet him and say things like, "You look lovely today, you precious thing." Grayson is so close to his inner girl-child that it's strange, yet also touching, to hear him mistakenly refer to his daughter as his sister: it makes so much sense.

"I really like the way Victorian clothes are so fetishistic. Women wearing them are somewhere between a doll and a piece of furniture. Kinky." Here Perry becomes animated. "Fantasies are very inspiring to me." www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/grayson-perry-what-should-i-wear-406299.html

"It’s not an alter ego, it’s a fetish." "If you’re a bank manager, you probably won’t be able to express your transvestism in the same way as an artist can." www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/art/8813146/Grayson-Perry-is-tired-of-living-a-double-life.html

foxgoosefinch · 09/11/2021 20:59

Bellmer was more than just a bit of a perv. As I said, the work is quite evil.

Well; we’re not supposed to judge people on their artistic tastes, but I’m going to judge him anyway. Angry

beastlyslumber · 09/11/2021 21:05

I like some of his art. He did a fab series on outsider males a few years ago. And I liked his book about men.

Artists are often weird and horrible people, though. I think I prefer an "autopaedophile" to an actual child abuser but these fetishes do seem to escalate so maybe it's just a fancy word for the same thing.

BitMuch · 09/11/2021 21:19

'Perry tells me, with a naughty grin, about his plans to wear a dress shaped like a “huge nappy”, with a pom-pom teddy bear on the crotch and bejewelled puff sleeves.

For him, part of the appeal of cross-dressing is the sexual kick. “Humiliation is a massive turn-on,” he says. “One of the things it’s ruined for me is that I’m no longer the anonymous pervert walking down the street. Before it was quite fun being the weirdo everyone stared at. '
www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2015/dec/14/grayson-perry-im-no-longer-the-anonymous-pervert-walking-down-the-street

He posed in the same Victorian-y dress he wore to one of the primary school events in this article, titled:

'Grayson Perry: My greatest sort of sex dream was to be a housewife walking down the road' where 'He admits that the act of dressing as a woman is bound up in his interest in eroticism, fetish sex and sadomasochism.'
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/23/grayson-perry-my-greatest-sort-of-sex-dream-was-to-be-a-housewif/

"I took my stepmother’s clothes, changed in the toilets behind the Chelmsford Museum and walked up and down the high street in make-up, a mini dress and a wig. It was very sexually exciting, a big turn on. Adrenaline is a great aphrodisiac. I got the wig from an advert in the back of the Daily Mail. I’m sure the Daily Mail would be happy to know they facilitated my sexual fetish."

"Some of my friends tell me they used to find me funny but scary, that after a few drinks I could be vicious to people. One of my mottos now is: it’s nice to be nice. Because people will be nice back" www.bigissue.com/interviews/letter-to-my-younger-self/grayson-perry-daily-mail-facilitated-sexual-fetish/ 2016.

'But perhaps the reason Perry is best known even to the person on the street who might not have heard of the Turner Prize, let alone be able to come up with any of its winners, is the fact that he has always cross-dressed, worn make-up, hair and clothes associated with women (those clothes are often designed for him by his students at Central Saint Martins). Yes, it's a fetish thing for him; yes, it created problems in his younger life' edinburghfestival.list.co.uk/article/109615-grayson-perry-i-wasnt-the-right-kind-of-pervert/ 2019. (I find the videos of the female, often foreign students measuring him for his outfits, helping him try them on and posing for photos with him in order to gain marks for their degree disturbing. There's a weird lump in this photo) images.app.goo.gl/4UD8eMZGoM8w7qDa9.

"I'm a very heterosexual man who likes putting on dresses, gets off on it, and that's the end of it, really.”
He isn't a fan of drag. “No one is as sexist as a transvestite, because we get off on wearing the wrong clothes; so, if there was androgyny, we wouldn't exist.”
www.afr.com/life-and-luxury/arts-and-culture/grayson-perry-the-comedic-everyman-in-a-dress-20191212-p53jh7 2019

Sorry for all the quotes OP but I have to back up my statements. I found Grayson Perry very charming before I knew his motivation too. You might find it interesting where he says he's deliberately nice in order to act out his fetish in public without people realising.

Datun · 09/11/2021 21:23

Ugh.

He finds that the most humiliating thing a human being can possibly be is a little girl. And then he wanks to it.

BahHumbygge · 09/11/2021 21:33

In plain sight.

borntobequiet · 09/11/2021 21:42

I’ve always been amazed by how people rate and admire GP. The only person I know who considers him as creepy and repulsive as I do is my brother, who is a child psychiatrist.

littlbrowndog · 09/11/2021 21:51

Oh ffs

Horrid. What lives in that mans. Head

I guess he shows us what’s in his head

Yuck

littlbrowndog · 09/11/2021 21:52

He goes into,schools !!

beastlyslumber · 09/11/2021 21:53

@borntobequiet

I’ve always been amazed by how people rate and admire GP. The only person I know who considers him as creepy and repulsive as I do is my brother, who is a child psychiatrist.
Isn't his wife a child therapist of some kind? Maybe I got that wrong.

No one used to think Eddie Izzard was a creep either. Being open about cross dressing seems to be a good cover and a way of getting sympathy.

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