MS are handing out pronoun badges to their staff

[PostingForTheFirstTime]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10173649/M-S-diversity-managers-staff-pronoun-badges-customers-know-address-them.html

I will be emailing the appropriate departments advising them that gender ideology is still a hot political topic; its decision to allow men to use women's changing rooms made me so uncomfortable that I will not shop for clothes in their stores any more, but its decision to push a political stance with which I fundamentally disagree means I won't be using them at all from now on.

So sad, because I love their trousers and their Christmas party foods.

Excuse the typos :mention at some point - no pressure and no take up by staff.

They, them, their, he, him, his, she, her and hers are not made up words

zie zim zir zis zieself sie sie hir hirs hirself eyemeir eir seirself vever vis vers verself tey ter tem ters terself e em eir eirs emself
Fae faeself faer fears etc etc etc

And these are.

M&S pronoun badges=TRA mission creep.

@ViceLikeBlip

I don't agree with this at all, I think most of us are in agreement about how pronouns are not the simple "diversity win" that many seem to think they are.

But this attitude of looking for a fight, instantly boycotting anything to do with M&S, gleefully writing angry emails of complaint? This is all behaviour I associate with TRAs, and I'm not going to be part of that.

Oh well I started the boycott of m and s pre lockdown because they made all the changing rooms mixed sex. So far they've lost a tiddly £1500 from me. And rising.

Another decent post deleted, not sure what was wrong with Whatsnewpussyhat's post as it was balanced and fair-minded.

@bordermidgebite

Made up meanings rather than made up words

Is a word "made up " if it's meaning is changed ? Repurposed might be better than made up

I would go with appropriated when it comes to taking these particular words and claiming they can be used by whoever and mean whatever.

If you deliberately avoid using pronouns because that person prefers pronouns other than the ones you think they should be using then you're transphobic. It's about intent. For example if you think they should use he/him but they prefer they/them and so you avoid using their pronouns at all.

That's not transphobic - not using pronouns because you don't want to subscribe to someone else's ideology (or because you're genuinely scared of being branded a bigot if you get it wrong, etc) is not a hostile act or transphobic.

Avoiding pronouns entirely and using their name and being civil to them is akin to showing a genuine interest in someone else's religion without expressing your own opinions on it, whereas deliberately misgendering is the equivalent of saying "your religion is just plain wrong" to them.

@LonginesPrime

If you deliberately avoid using pronouns because that person prefers pronouns other than the ones you think they should be using then you're transphobic. It's about intent. For example if you think they should use he/him but they prefer they/them and so you avoid using their pronouns at all.

That's not transphobic - not using pronouns because you don't want to subscribe to someone else's ideology (or because you're genuinely scared of being branded a bigot if you get it wrong, etc) is not a hostile act or transphobic.

Avoiding pronouns entirely and using their name and being civil to them is akin to showing a genuine interest in someone else's religion without expressing your own opinions on it, whereas deliberately misgendering is the equivalent of saying "your religion is just plain wrong" to them.

Completely agree.

I am prepared to avoid using pronouns someone would find impolite. I'm not however willing to use pronouns I don't agree with and perceive as being forced to lie. Or participate in language games.

If the insistence is that it's not enough to politely respect that person by avoiding the issue, we can't all be grown ups about it and I must speak the words demanded or be called rude names, then I'm afraid I regard that as being forced to be discourteous and I will have to use my own choice of words instead of theirs.

@FlyingOink

Another decent post deleted, not sure what was wrong with Whatsnewpussyhat's post as it was balanced and fair-minded.

Telling the truth is banned, along with pointing out the obvious or mentioning the reality of being female.

Who are the most oppressed again? 🤔

I think it’s a great idea. They should have really big badges and also include:

who they voted for in the last election,
their religion,
their dietary preferences,
their view on abortion,
whether they drive a diesel, petrol or electric car,
whether they prefer cats or dogs
their favourite band
their opinion of grammar schools
whether they claim Universal Credit
whether they think Covid is a hoax
whether they voted for Brexit….

This would also save a lot of money on staff uniforms as the badges would cover them up nicely. B**r to decide where to put the pin though 🤔

I was served by a staff member in Wickes yesterday wearing a “they/them” badge. No other staff members were wearing similar badges. I just can’t envisage a scenario where I’d be referring to a staff member in Wickes in the third person.

l was only in MS a couple of days ago trying on some jeans. l didnt even realise about the changing rooms, but it doesnt bother me at all, neither do the badges, l would never intentionally want to offend anyone, but if l did by mistake l would apologise and that would be that, l think this whole business is getting way to complicated.
Maybe just refer to us as humans and be done with it, same with nationality, just say Earth.

@Moonface123

l was only in MS a couple of days ago trying on some jeans. l didnt even realise about the changing rooms, but it doesnt bother me at all, neither do the badges, l would never intentionally want to offend anyone, but if l did by mistake l would apologise and that would be that, l think this whole business is getting way to complicated. Maybe just refer to us as humans and be done with it, same with nationality, just say Earth.

Cool, cool that it doesn't bother you.

Bothers me though.

I don't really get the point. Do many people address someone in the shop as she or he? If describing someone ie oh I was being helped by x member of staff, if you saw the pronouns you'd also see the name and could surely just use that?

But staff at m&s arent expected to wear the badges so I dont see the problem.

Seriously on here its made to sound like m&s is woke central it really isnt. I worked there my partner still does and there is absolutely no talk about this from management or other staff members.

@FaaarkinEll

Another hard of thinking.

If you deliberately avoid using pronouns because that person prefers pronouns other than the ones you think they should be using then you're transphobic. It's about intent. For example if you think they should use he/him but they prefer they/them and so you avoid using their pronouns at all.

Fucking hell. Whichever route we take it causes offence? Well best thing to do is just ignore this whole bloody farce then. It's as good as over. Sunlight is pouring now and no stopping, no debate is well and truly over. And I am glad, the fight has been really hard but so very worth the time of us all with the courage of our convictions.
Maybe those who were arrested for thought crime and lost jobs for same will be pleased and hopeful for the future.

Well best thing to do is just ignore this whole bloody farce then.

If you're going to be labelled "transphobic" either way, people are more likely to want to make a statement about how they don't appreciate being told how to think or speak.

I think the general public think it is a way to 'be kind' to people who have gone through a full transition, without knowing the truth or anything about the TRAs. Having said that, it doesn't mean the TRAs achieve anything but badge wearing by some staff. Plus laughter or eye-rolling by many more and how many will see if they can select a few badges depending on the day with 'fun' options to see if they can get away with multiple genders?

These are not just pronouns. These are pure gender ideology pronouns from @marksandspencer.

Plus laughter or eye-rolling by many more and how many will see if they can select a few badges depending on the day with 'fun' options to see if they can get away with multiple genders

Pips bunce and some police person come to mind.

If M&S - or indeed anywhere else - wanted to improve their name badges in a way that would actually be useful & helpful they could change to using black text on a yellow background (like those recommended for use in the NHS because they’re easiest to read for people with visual &/or cognitive impairments).

But then, there are only around 2 million people in the UK who are blind or visually impaired (couldn’t find a better breakdown, sorry) & only more than 850,000 people with some form of dementia - or 1/14 people over 65 and 1/6 over 80. That’s without adding in adults whose literacy levels mean they benefit from larger text (including ESOL adults who find it easier to read Latin script in a larger text); people with TBIs; those people whose dyslexia means they benefit from large black text in certain fonts on the yellow background…

But of course disabled access isn’t a priority - hence tendency of clothes shops to use cubicles designated for customers with disabilities as handy storage space. After all, why introduce policies that would actually be life-changing for some members of a truly vulnerable group (you know, the one a UN report concluded suffer human rights abuses by the government - not that they’d cop to any of it even after a second report raised concerns) when you can just sling out some badges (with all the problems identified by PP) trying to look Right On?

(Oh and @littlbrowndog, apparently preferred pronouns is transphobic in & of itself because it implies there is a choice in the matter rather than the pronouns one uses after revealing their identity being a reflection of that which has always been true. Someone is not asking to be called fae through choice, but because it reflects that not only do they not wish to use gendered pronouns but they are also a fairy/fairylike being. Fae neopronouns were some of the earliest [together with the bunny-based “bun-”] nounself non-gendered neopronouns, a neopronoun type often used as the oral complement to emojiself ones, [used only in writing]. I wonder if M&S will allow both sets to be used if a staff member uses emojiself pronouns I’m also wondering if they understand JUST how many pronouns there are - if they’re planning to just offer the [now-]usual 3 choices that’s not sufficient, they need to be making custom ones…)

Considering how quiet M&S is these days I’d say they have bigger issues going on just now.
They need to spend their time getting people back into stores.

There's an piece in the Times today about M & S Pronouns and also about Gen Z and their demands at work. I suddenly began to understand why lots of companies are still clinging to the madness and also that HR & Diversity departments are topping all other actions in business, instead of focusing on their businesses. These young emplolyees are fully signed up to the kind of diversity that doesn't include the wisdom of age, so our knowledge of what can happen if you remove single sex spaces just isn't part of their thinking and wont be until they are personally impacted (surely the rape culture at Uni would have had an impact, but apparently not).

This group are used to their parents saying 'yes of course darling' and not, don't you think that's a bit daft
Sorry my share tokens don't work on this laptop
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/warning-generation-z-at-work-are-their-bosses-ready-for-them-sjgsftlr7
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/this-isnt-just-a-pronoun-this-is-an-m-amp-s-pronoun-vcv2j5sq7