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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Intergender MMA fight

195 replies

Genderbread · 31/10/2021 00:19

I have just seen this link anout an “intergender” mma fight - labelled barbaric and brutal in the comments.
Is there any difference between this fight and a fight between a woman and a self identified woman?

www.sportbible.com/mma/controversial-intergender-mma-bout-in-poland-ends-in-brutal-tko-20211030

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 05/11/2021 09:35

I think that disparities in abilities in non contact team sports (hockey, football, netball etc.) would be greatly decreased if only we didn't needlessly gender sports.

So… this is the old ‘females should try harder and would if they competed with males’ ploy.

Do you understand sports at all? Do you understand that even having larger lung capacity allows males to aim better because they are more efficient in breathing. And at elite levels, this actually counts.

In archery, it is not just breathing, but arm length and muscle. In gymnastics, males can do female routines with more twists and more somersaults than females. Do you honestly believe that this is just females not trying hard enough?

And if you are talking with team sports, those mixed team relays posted above says it all really. Sure it is fine for a relay where the numbers are strictly controlled. But mixed netball … having played as a kid, I can certainly imagine that at competition level having males in certain positions will really be an advantage. So do you then control what positions males can be in?

If you are talking about non-competitive strictly social games, sure mixed sex, whatever.

It certainly becomes apparent that the only genuinely open sex Olympic sport seems to be some equestrian events. And any person denying this needs to bring some new research to the table. Or else they are simply continuing the same old line of ‘sports shouldn’t be competitive anyway, only for enjoyment of doing ones best’. In which case, those types of posters should stay in their lane and do their own competitions which I am sure are established already and leave the other sports to be protected based on sex and never gender where it is not designated open or mixed sex.

Maybe ignes would be interested in this webinar.

m.facebook.com/MacdonaldLaurierInstitute/videos/805422613413653/

If Mianne Bagger can understand that they were wrong to have played in women’s golf, to have been instrumental in forcing the change to accept them to play in female championships, to have been a champion in a ‘non-contact’ sport, then maybe it is time for this push to be reversed.

Helleofabore · 11/11/2021 15:03

Maybe @IgnesFauti would be interested in this Open University GCN seminar where Dr Hilton goes through the sex differences.

OUGCRN Seminar : Sex, Gender, and Sport after Tokyo

As she points out the 69 kg male weightlifting champion at 164 cm can lift more weight and any female weightlifting champion. Even Tatiana Kashirina who is 108 kg an 177 cm tall.

Then maybe Ignes can explain if on average males lose 5-10% with transition, (even 12% to be generous) but the advantage is still so great why should even 'smaller' males be included in the female category.

Dr Hilton goes through the Hubbard case as an example at 15 minutes.

Thank you Open University and Prof Jo Phoenix for hosting this seminar.

334bu · 11/11/2021 15:34

I don't think Ignes will be back. The need, on a Mumsnet thread full of knowledgeable women , to back up assertions which are based solely on anecdote and someone's wishful thinking about their own situation, is too much for many of these posters. They want to say ," look at how weak I am" , and for everyone here to believe them without question. Never going to happen

Helleofabore · 11/11/2021 15:36

I know 334, you are probably right. But they may! I live in hope....

334bu · 11/11/2021 15:38
Grin
Helleofabore · 16/11/2021 16:00

And for anyone looking back over this thread, this is an interesting article about (potentially) male goalkeepers in football. A topic that was mentioned here.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/4af69748-46be-11ec-9969-911e63457092?shareToken=d4ce2656ef2588ac7db82c7fd41b163e

IgnesFauti · 26/11/2021 15:14

@334bu

I don't think Ignes will be back. The need, on a Mumsnet thread full of knowledgeable women , to back up assertions which are based solely on anecdote and someone's wishful thinking about their own situation, is too much for many of these posters. They want to say ," look at how weak I am" , and for everyone here to believe them without question. Never going to happen
I still think this kinda thing should be done on a case by case basis, so yes, anecdotes are relevant, I also pointed out that anecdotes that I provide are just that, and shouldn't be taken as blanket fact for all trans women because turns out not all humans are the same
IgnesFauti · 26/11/2021 15:19

@Helleofabore

I think that disparities in abilities in non contact team sports (hockey, football, netball etc.) would be greatly decreased if only we didn't needlessly gender sports.

So… this is the old ‘females should try harder and would if they competed with males’ ploy.

Do you understand sports at all? Do you understand that even having larger lung capacity allows males to aim better because they are more efficient in breathing. And at elite levels, this actually counts.

In archery, it is not just breathing, but arm length and muscle. In gymnastics, males can do female routines with more twists and more somersaults than females. Do you honestly believe that this is just females not trying hard enough?

And if you are talking with team sports, those mixed team relays posted above says it all really. Sure it is fine for a relay where the numbers are strictly controlled. But mixed netball … having played as a kid, I can certainly imagine that at competition level having males in certain positions will really be an advantage. So do you then control what positions males can be in?

If you are talking about non-competitive strictly social games, sure mixed sex, whatever.

It certainly becomes apparent that the only genuinely open sex Olympic sport seems to be some equestrian events. And any person denying this needs to bring some new research to the table. Or else they are simply continuing the same old line of ‘sports shouldn’t be competitive anyway, only for enjoyment of doing ones best’. In which case, those types of posters should stay in their lane and do their own competitions which I am sure are established already and leave the other sports to be protected based on sex and never gender where it is not designated open or mixed sex.

Maybe ignes would be interested in this webinar.

m.facebook.com/MacdonaldLaurierInstitute/videos/805422613413653/

If Mianne Bagger can understand that they were wrong to have played in women’s golf, to have been instrumental in forcing the change to accept them to play in female championships, to have been a champion in a ‘non-contact’ sport, then maybe it is time for this push to be reversed.

Please dear god cite the study that proves that lung capacity gives you better aim. The last time the shooting was mixed at the olympics, it was won by a cis woman! I'll point out that there are numerous cases of championship football clubs wanting to sign female player but not being allowed to. Football isn't about brute strength, it's about skill, and if there are women who can and want to play in a "mens" competition I don't see why not.
334bu · 26/11/2021 15:24

* I'll point out that there are numerous cases of championship football clubs wanting to sign female player but not being allowed to. Football isn't about brute strength, it's about skill, and if there are women who can and want to play in a "mens" competition I don't see why not.*

Megan Rapinhoe who can't by the way beat under 15 boys, would never get s spot on a professional male team.
Stop talking absolute rubbish.

Helleofabore · 26/11/2021 15:29

I'll point out that there are numerous cases of championship football clubs wanting to sign female player but not being allowed to. Football isn't about brute strength, it's about skill, and if there are women who can and want to play in a "mens" competition I don't see why not.

If females wish to play in a men's competition and accept the risk, then that is there decision. Just like the World Rugby guidelines. Football is a contact sport. Just because it has different types of contact than Rugby, doesn't mean it is not dangerous.

In fact, one could factor in the speed and power of a ball from a male foot that is headed by a female even. There is many instances where females are at increased risk due to a male presence.

Just because you think that a weak male will have little impact, it is really clear that they still are stronger and more powerful than the average female athlete. Case by case does what?

And you are again mixing 'social' games where everyone should get a chance, with lower level competition games. When should a mediocre male ever be rewarded with a female sporting team role?

Just because they have chosen to adjust their training to suit their desired body, why should have be rewarded? Case by case simply means that male who has successfully allowed their body to reduce its power, its speed to replicate their desired look is rewarded.

Why is that ever acceptable when there is already a male category they can play in?

Helleofabore · 26/11/2021 15:33

Here is another webinar that you might like to listen to.

open.spotify.com/show/3g71AuFYy6FnYHEI1GO9A0

Last night with Ross Tucker and Dr Emma Hilton discussing many fallacies that are proposed to allow males to play. Including the ridiculous 'Phelps - some people have advantage get over it' argument.

Still looking forward to seeing the research that would support inclusion of males into female categories of sports.

Including a case by case scenario ignes that is fair to all transitioned males, not just rewarding those who have chosen other priorities over fitness and maintaining peak performance.

aliasundercover · 26/11/2021 17:01

I'll point out that there are numerous cases of championship football clubs wanting to sign female player but not being allowed to

I don't believe that is true. I'm follow football closely and I've never heard of anything like this. The very, very best female footballers are waaaaaaaay behind even middle-level men.

Could you please give one example of where this is supposed to have happened?

Helleofabore · 26/11/2021 17:53

aliasundercover

Do you think that Ignes is stretching the truth to fit their agenda that a special subset of males should have access to female sport's categories?

Well.... I guess we have seen that tactic before.

aliasundercover · 26/11/2021 19:55

Do you think that Ignes is stretching the truth

No, I think Ignes is flat-out lying :)

Nellodee · 26/11/2021 19:58

I am really shit at running, so on a case by case basis, I should be allowed to compete against world class five year olds.

Helleofabore · 26/11/2021 20:23

I have 70 year old beating me on my running tracks, so if I proved I could not beat the 90 year olds, would that be ok. As a case by case basis. And you know, I train and everything…

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/11/2021 19:57

IgnesFauti

Please dear god cite the study that proves that lung capacity gives you better aim. The last time the shooting was mixed at the olympics, it was won by a cis woman!

Pretty sure you're getting the archery mixed up with skeet shooting, performed with a gun. I have checked the Olympics records since 1900, and can find no mention of a mixed event.

No-one needs to do a "study". You realise that when you breathe, your chest moves, yes? That means it knocks the bow and your aim aside, too. One technique to deal with this is holding your breath entirely while you take the shot. The greater your lung capacity, the longer you get to aim before your own body's need for oxygen interferes and forces you to move.

Here, I found someone else's explanation and technique to handle it. Again, you see that the greater lung capacity one has, the more time this technique gives you.

extract

Step 4: Check your breathing

You’d be surprised how important breathing is for your ability to properly aim your bow. Not only do the breathing affect the stability of your bow, but it also affects your mental state.

But let’s focus on the bow stability. If you’ve anchored the bow and trying to aim while breathing normally, you’ll see that your bow is much harder to hold steadily.

There is a correct way to breathe that’ll eliminate this issue. Between raising your bow and until you’re at full draw, you’ll breathe normally from your diaphragm. At full draw, you’ll breath out to around 50% of the air, and then hold your breath until the follow-through. Let the air out slowly when following through.

By holding your breath you’ll eliminate the inherent instability your breath introduces to your bow. You’ll be able to aim the bow much better.

If you take too long to aim, you can take a small break, breathe normally to relax, then begin holding your breath again and continue aiming.

Mastring breathing will increase your stability and overall performance.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/11/2021 19:59

*I can find no mention of a mixed event for the archery, that is. I am well aware of how a woman won the mixed skeet shooting and they then made the event men-only.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/11/2021 20:07

This is what you were thinking of.

Shan Zhang, the woman who won gold in the 1992 Olympics, in the skeet shooting (no bow involved!)

Zhang caused a sensation by finishing first and becoming the first woman to win a mixed sex shooting event. The International Shooting Union barred women from shooting against men after the Barcelona Games. Women were not allowed to compete in skeet shooting at the 1996 Olympic Games, so Zhang was unable to defend her title. A separate women's skeet event was added to the program for the Sydney Games of 2000. Zhang entered and placed eighth.

olympics.com/en/athletes/shan-zhang

Helleofabore · 27/11/2021 22:34

Hey thanks purgatory. Yes. When I was being coached for archery breathing was hugely important.

And as for shooting …

eley.co.uk/coaching-for-accuracy-breathing-techniques-for-staying-on-target/

Larger lungs means better oxygenation and more time between breaths to aim.

Similar. Although with archery you pull the bow to your nose so breathing movement with chests and shoulders etc can have an effect. You certainly need controlled breathing.

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