Intergender MMA fight

[Genderbread]

I have just seen this link anout an “intergender” mma fight - labelled barbaric and brutal in the comments.
Is there any difference between this fight and a fight between a woman and a self identified woman?

www.sportbible.com/mma/controversial-intergender-mma-bout-in-poland-ends-in-brutal-tko-20211030

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude

www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/782557v1

"Thigh muscle volume increased (15%) in TM, which was paralleled by increased quadriceps CSA (15%) and radiological density (6%). In TW, the corresponding parameters decreased by −5% (muscle volume) and −4% (CSA), while density remained unaltered. The TM increased strength over the assessment period, while the TW generally maintained or slightly increased in strength. Baseline muscle volume correlated highly with strength (R>0.75), yet the relative change in muscle volume and strength correlated only moderately (R=0.65 in TW and R=0.32 in TM). The absolute levels of muscle volume and knee extension strength after the intervention still favored the TW."

resources.world.rugby/worldrugby/document/2020/10/09/a67e3cc3-7dea-4f1e-b523-2cba1073729d/Transgender-Research_Summary-of-data_ENGLISH-09.10.2020.pdf

Even if a TW has lost some strength the gap between people who have been through male puberty and female puberty is so large to begin with that hormone therapy doesn't undo it.

bad science

I'm going to have to say it again. Bone density doesn't decide a rugby match and Muscle mass is greatly decreased on HRT for trans women. If you think that all sport is just brute strength, why don't elite athletes all look like weightlifters?

I would be interested in further information

But i feel this is rather like transwomen athlete’s saying they have low testosterone…apparently lower than females but they don’t provide any evidence

again, this is talking about AMAB individuals BEFORE hormone therapy

This is indicating the baseline. This is how much strength that must be lost to equalise this individual factor.

Longitudinal studies examining the effects of testosterone suppression on muscle mass and strength in transgender women consistently show very modest changes, where the loss of lean body mass, muscle area and strength typically amounts to approximately 5% after 12 months of treatment. Thus, the muscular advantage enjoyed by transgender women is only minimally reduced when testosterone is suppressed. Sports organizations should consider this evidence when reassessing current policies regarding participation of transgender women in the female category of sport.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33289906/

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I'm going to have to say it again. Bone density doesn't decide a rugby match and Muscle mass is greatly decreased on HRT for trans women. If you think that all sport is just brute strength, why don't elite athletes all look like weightlifters

Bone density of an opponent rather influences the health outcome for each player after a collision. Rugby has a lot of these collisions.

I'm an old woman and I also used to believe that women were as strong as men and to say otherwise was anti-feminist. Stupidity isn't the monopoly of just one generation

ignes

You might find this study interesting.

bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577

Either way Ignes, who is to say whether a trans competitor even has hormone therapy? And who assesses this?

And to what level is the degradation of muscle mass due to a person deliberately reshaping their body and not training those particular muscle sets for aesthetics?

And to why should a subset of males be allowed to change their training regime to fit their body expectations and be allowed to compete against females? What other athletes can do this? No adult can stop training to compete with the kids for instance.

I'm going to have to say it again. Bone density doesn't decide a rugby match and Muscle mass is greatly decreased on HRT for trans women. If you think that all sport is just brute strength, why don't elite athletes all look like weightlifters

you can say it for as many times as you like.

There is a combination of body advantages that contribute to a male have absolute advantage over a female in almost every sport. Even having greater lung capacity allowing aim to be more accurate. Even faster receptors when a person sees something to their body being able to respond.

I would expect that the potential for head injury is a massive risk for MMA as it is in Rugby. And there is absolutely no getting away with the fact that the combinations of many factors that are, again, not migitated by cross sex hormones and change in training regime, will mean that a female skull is at higher risk of serious trauma as is a female brain.

It is negligent of any fighting code to allow a male of any gender to compete against a female.

true, but trans women who compete in sports have to go on HRT which makes it fair in that circumstance

No, it does not. Please produce the studies that prove this.

The studies that say that those males have negated their advantages? Not that testosterone reduction simply removes some of the advantage so they don't win.

If you put an engine on a Tour de France bike, you have an advantage, even if you do not win. A virilised puberty is that engine, just because a male does not 'win' doesn't mean it is a fair competition.

A 20 year old might be barely fit and compete against an 80 year old in a Master's championship and not win, but it doesn't mean that 20 year old should ever have been competing in a protected category designed to allow older athletes to have a competition for themselves.

Additionally...

I'd have to look into it more since I don't have the evidence to hand but in my experience and from what I've heard it's pretty drastic. Obviously you don't lose 100% of your muscle mass that'd be utterly absurd you'd literally be skin bones and fat if that were the case but from what I know HRT for two years brings muscle mass down to a more typically female shape and mass etc. Hormones control statins and if you don't use it, you lose it, so as a result muscle mass isn't a deciding factor for sports between trans women and cis women

I look forward to seeing it.

And relevant to a sports application where athletes do not change their training regime to reshape their body.

I know HRT for two years brings muscle mass down to a more typically female shape and mass etc

If a female doesn't keep her fitness up to be able to play sport, why should any male who choses to not 'use it' and subsequently 'loses it', be included in the team because they still beat the female who doesn't train.

Why should mediocre sportsmanship be rewarded in this way?

Do you believe that competing in the female category is a consolation prize for a male who chooses to reshape their body and modify their hormones because they can no longer compete with males?

Why can't they still compete with males, train as they should be to maintain their fitness to compete in the sport that they are choosing to continue to play in?

Ignes

You are calling research by the Karolinska Institute bad science. Is that the same Karolinska Institute whose Nobel Institute awards the Nobel prize for Medicine and Physiology? The Karolinska Institute who QS rank as the 6th best medical school in the world?

How exactly is their science bad?

I'm going to have to say it again. Bone density doesn't decide a rugby match and Muscle mass is greatly decreased on HRT for trans women. If you think that all sport is just brute strength, why don't elite athletes all look like weightlifters
Read the links and stop writing absolute tosh. There is absolutely no evidence that lowering testosterone has any significant influence on the gap between male and female athletes. Even Joanna Harper admits this.

Well, I expect that ignes has some very recent studies that were not included in the World Rugby pack, or the UK Sports Council guidance.

So, I am really looking forward to it. We haven't seen much new for a while and I know there are a number being done, maybe one has come out.

Ignes I am going to give the you the benefit of the doubt here for a minute. I think that most biological males who have been through puberty don't realise just how much stronger they are than someone who has been through female puberty. So cross sex hormones may create a real sense of losing strength and muscle mass for a TW. However, the losses they experience, whilst having a meaningful impact for them, are still not sufficient to close the gap with their biologically female comparators.

HRT for two years brings muscle mass down to a more typically female shape and mass

It won't alter bone structure, pelvis, gait, height, etc, obviously.

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude

Ignes I am going to give the you the benefit of the doubt here for a minute. I think that most biological males who have been through puberty don't realise just how much stronger they are than someone who has been through female puberty. So cross sex hormones may create a real sense of losing strength and muscle mass for a TW. However, the losses they experience, whilst having a meaningful impact for them, are still not sufficient to close the gap with their biologically female comparators.

just to be clear I'm a trans woman married to a cis woman and pre hrt I was definitely marginally stronger than my wife but on HRT she's definitely stronger than me. Just to put some numbers on it before HRT I could lift up around 70kgs; after HRT I can only lift up around 45-50kgs. I also play as a winger for a small football club and it might just be that I already had a pretty average stature for a woman even before HRT etc but I'm utterly no match for some of the team's defenders (who are cis women who are taller, stronger and faster than me) despite being a proficient player myself and also.

There's always outliers either side. But generally transwomen will be significantly stronger than women. The benefits of a male puberty.

@ArabellaScott

HRT for two years brings muscle mass down to a more typically female shape and mass

It won't alter bone structure, pelvis, gait, height, etc, obviously.

You'd be surprised what HRT can do if given time... It actually does subtly alter bone structure and tendans. Gait isn't something that's typically male/female and is more often considered to just be a personal quirk. Height? I'm a trans woman and I'm 5'4"... most cis women I meet are my height or taller. Also: pelvis shape and Gait aren't the deciders of MMA fights???

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude

Ignes

You are calling research by the Karolinska Institute bad science. Is that the same Karolinska Institute whose Nobel Institute awards the Nobel prize for Medicine and Physiology? The Karolinska Institute who QS rank as the 6th best medical school in the world?

How exactly is their science bad?

Yeah, and Wakefield's paper was "from the royal free hospital"

I hate to point out that just because an institution is prestigious, it doesn't mean everything it does is...

I hate to point out that just because an institution is prestigious, it doesn't mean everything it does is...

Ignes , you believe , despite all scientific evidence to the contrary, that lowering testosterone eliminates the gap between male and female athletes' performance and makes male bones as susceptible to harm as female bones, so I think I'll stick with the Karolinska Institute's findings.

Oh by the way, just because someone is well below the average height for their sex doesn't mean that the height difference between the sexes disappears. Moreover, if you are being outplayed by most of the women on your football team, you are maybe not really as proficient as you think you are, after all an under fifteen boys team annihilated the Women's World Cup champions.

So, no studies. Just an anecdote based on your own perception?

That is it?

That is it?

That's how it works these days it seems.

Just an anecdote based on your own perception

A bit like Joanna Harper's original " study" , which accepted self declared data and compared running times produced decades apart.

You are right. There seems to be some special powers around this topic that means that is all that is needed to convince the OIC to forgo fairness and prioritise inclusion.

Just like the special powers that means a male can choose to take medication that may lower their performance and for some reason, despite scientific evidence, are allowed to compete in the female category. While other males without that distinction have to forfeit sports if they have to take medication that lowers their performance.