Intergender MMA fight

[Genderbread]

I have just seen this link anout an “intergender” mma fight - labelled barbaric and brutal in the comments.
Is there any difference between this fight and a fight between a woman and a self identified woman?

www.sportbible.com/mma/controversial-intergender-mma-bout-in-poland-ends-in-brutal-tko-20211030

It actually does subtly alter bone structure and tendans

Yeah. Still not like a female skeleton though. And your skull is in no way like a female skull.

Gait isn't something that's typically male/female and is more often considered to just be a personal quirk.

Please provide evidence for the this. I have seen evidence that contradicts this.

Height? I'm a trans woman and I'm 5'4"... most cis women I meet are my height or taller.

So what? Height is not necessarily an indicator that a taller female will be stronger or have any advantage over you but height. You still have plenty of advantages that remain.

Height? I'm a trans woman and I'm 5'4"... most cis women I meet are my height or taller.
Yes you are small for your sex, however compared to women you are average height.

I know two men in a martial arts context who are shorter than me. I can confirm that each is much stronger than me, and they can both lift a 50kg weight I can't, and they can also launch me across the room if they don't hold back. If either of them should take cross-sex hormones and reduce their strength by 5%, they will still be stronger than I am.

@Helleofabore

I'd have to look into it more since I don't have the evidence to hand but in my experience and from what I've heard it's pretty drastic. Obviously you don't lose 100% of your muscle mass that'd be utterly absurd you'd literally be skin bones and fat if that were the case but from what I know HRT for two years brings muscle mass down to a more typically female shape and mass etc. Hormones control statins and if you don't use it, you lose it, so as a result muscle mass isn't a deciding factor for sports between trans women and cis women

I look forward to seeing it.

And relevant to a sports application where athletes do not change their training regime to reshape their body.

I know HRT for two years brings muscle mass down to a more typically female shape and mass etc

If a female doesn't keep her fitness up to be able to play sport, why should any male who choses to not 'use it' and subsequently 'loses it', be included in the team because they still beat the female who doesn't train.

Why should mediocre sportsmanship be rewarded in this way?

Do you believe that competing in the female category is a consolation prize for a male who chooses to reshape their body and modify their hormones because they can no longer compete with males?

Why can't they still compete with males, train as they should be to maintain their fitness to compete in the sport that they are choosing to continue to play in?

this is just the way we as humans decide to segregate sports sadly and you can make whatever shallow judgements you want about athletes you've never met or even seen in person but ultimately it's just ignorant and frankly pretty offensive and imo ludicrous to suggest that cis men would come out as one of the most stigmatised minorities around and like deal with all this bs I've had to deal with since I came out JUST so they can maybe win some meaningless sports competition. We "award" "mediocre sportsmanship" in this way all the time. If you're 6'4" and an average goalkeeper, you're probably going to be at a similar level to a keeper who's a foot shorter and a lot more skilled because you're just at an advantage to begin with so you have to put in less effort. Sadly we're not all created equal and it sucks but human's like to pretend we're all equal in every way when we should in fact just be making our environments more equal.

At the end of the day - people can and will believe what they want, regardless of the evidence presented. That’s their choice.

But to say that men and women are equal in strength is as bonkers as me saying I’m off to the moon tomorrow. It’s simply not true.

The average male is stronger than the average female, end of. There is no discussion to be had. It’s a scientific fact.

And I would say that 95% of people would agree, except those of school age now, where what they are taught is factually incorrect scientifically

imo ludicrous to suggest that cis men would come out as one of the most stigmatised minorities around and like deal with all this bs I've had to deal with since I came out JUST so they can maybe win some meaningless sports competition

Back in 2000, 10 Spanish basketball players feigned having learning disabilities in order to enter the Paralympics. Cognitive impairments are very stigmatised.

news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/1039129.stm

I ask you this. If sports competitions are so meaningless, why are you on this thread, arguing for transwomen's eligibility to play in the women's category? Why aren't you willing to concede here?

this is just the way we as humans decide to segregate sports sadly

Yes, and with all the sports scientists and biologists in the world that have been looking at this closely with a view to allow males to compete with females have yet to find even ONE better way to segregate sport than by sex category, age and ability. Strange that.

And you have not posited one better solution yourself.

So that is currently the way sports are segregated and every few months more research on the body differences between males and females and the health risks associated with it is published.

and you can make whatever shallow judgements you want about athletes you've never met or even seen in person but ultimately it's just ignorant and frankly pretty offensive and imo ludicrous to suggest that cis men would come out as one of the most stigmatised minorities around

I actually never said that a male would ‘come out’ to play in female sport. I said if one subset of males taking medication that lowers their performance is allowed to, why don’t all males get that opportunity. Regardless of the medication. Why? Why is one group to be treated as more special than another group of males?

and like deal with all this bs I've had to deal with since I came out JUST so they can maybe win some meaningless sports competition.

If you consider sports competitions so meaningless, why are you playing in a female team and potentially causing greater damage to a female when you collide with them? And why are any males competing In female sports? I can assure you that females competing in these sports do NOT think they are meaningless at all. They hold a great deal of meaning.

And did you ever consider that males of ALL abilities and fitness can find a team to play in. Males against males? If an international rugby player can do it, why can’t all other transitioned males play against other males?

We "award" "mediocre sportsmanship" in this way all the time. If you're 6'4" and an average goalkeeper, you're probably going to be at a similar level to a keeper who's a foot shorter and a lot more skilled because you're just at an advantage to begin with so you have to put in less effort.

And if they are both female, the team coach will make the decision on who goes where at what time. There are very varied skills and body types within the sex classes in sports, but it is the difference between the sexes and segregation of those sex classes that allows females to have fair competition.

Sadly we're not all created equal and it sucks but human's like to pretend we're all equal in every way when we should in fact just be making our environments more equal

I think you and the poster who reckons her daughter is stronger than her husband are the only posters who seem to believe that male bodies and female bodies can compete equally, or fairly. And yeah, it sucks that male bodies cannot lose those pesky advantages that are being denied. Plus the deliberate choices of not training in a way to effect the body shape should not be considered as scientific reason for declining strength while on cross sex hormones.

A 5-10% change in strength does little to remove the risk of a punch that without cross sex hormones could be 160% + more powerful than a female human’s punch.

I ask you this. If sports competitions are so meaningless, why are you on this thread, arguing for transwomen's eligibility to play in the women's category? Why aren't you willing to concede here?

Ahhh! Cross post with purgatory.

Sadly we're not all created equal and it sucks but human's like to pretend we're all equal in every way when we should in fact just be making our environments more equal.

And some people like to pretend that the performance differential between male athletes and female athletes can be removed by lowering male testosterone and a lot of wishful thinking. The creation of sex categories in sport made our " environment" more equal so why on earth should it be changed to allow some male athletes to compete in a category in which they will have a huge advantage?

Really?

On this thread we have the anecdotal evidence that one mediocre male cannot compete with some athletic women in friendly, leisure football games. And we are expected to extrapolate this to all professional athletes? And ignore all the actual research out there?

And on the BBC thread we have people arguing that the testimonies of 50 raped women isn’t enough to even discuss that some transwomen sometime commit rape?

Yes, indeed. Double. Anecdotal evidence matters when it comes from the right people, it's to be dismissed when it comes from other kinds of people.

• someone with a curious mind might wonder what the difference is between the 'right' people and the other kind of people.

I would also be interested to know who old ignes is relevant to the others on their team. I read the tweets of a 50 something transitioned male playing rugby with and against much younger females. And commenting on how they get beaten… yet cannot acknowledge for one single moment that they are the oldest on the team by decades.

Completely ignorant of the effects of mentrual cycles on female bodies (even suppressed periods can have effect). And that of course, menopausal women will be incredibly rare playing rugby with younger women.

Yes, males often also forget just how discriminated females have been in sport too. Gosh, many of those ‘meaningless sports competitions’ were closed to females to even have an event to participate in. Fuck me! Really??

Oh and here’s the thing! Even in 2021 there is a disparity in availability of high quality coaching opportunities for young girls in some sports. So not only is there pubertal differences, and only just now the effects of the menstrual cycle on female athletes bodies and performance that males will never have. But let’s also remember that many of the males participating in female sports categories will have had better sports opportunities all through their life.

Why again should any male be able to have a position in a female competition that will mean one less female can compete? Particularly when any male who is able bodied can compete in a male competition without any issue at all, giving them two choices if they want. (And a Kent cricketer does just that and sets amazing women’s records as a male)

And a Kent cricketer does just that and sets amazing women’s records as a male)

And totally sucks when playing with the men.

Interesting point about age. There are quite a few examples of biologically male athletes who have been able to extend their sporting careers well into their forties and even fifties, after identifying as women. Valentina Petrillo and Laurel Hubbard are just two examples.

Yes… and surprisingly a lack of female examples of where a mid 30s to 50 yr old female starts a sport and rapidly succeeds to elite level…. And they simply don’t want to know why.

Inconvenient truth, isn’t it?

@Doubletoilandtrouble

Really?

On this thread we have the anecdotal evidence that one mediocre male cannot compete with some athletic women in friendly, leisure football games. And we are expected to extrapolate this to all professional athletes? And ignore all the actual research out there?

And on the BBC thread we have people arguing that the testimonies of 50 raped women isn’t enough to even discuss that some transwomen sometime commit rape?

It does seem like that

While we are using anacdata my husband is two inches shorter than me and a stone and a half lighter he is much much stronger than i am

When my sons were 14 they were shorter than me and I could beat them in play fights and pushing contests (dont ask) at 15 they were still shorter than me and i had had to pretend that i was throwing the fights on purpose

Don’t stand a cat in hells chance against them at 17+

And ‘meaningless’ 😒

I know whats meaningless and its not the sports

(Anocdata….thats the meaningless bit before anyone decides to twist my post)

RufustheBadgeringReindeer I have the pushing contests too with my 15 yo and I have a weight advantage (!!!) so if I get low enough quick enough I can hold him off just. Otherwise he is way stronger than me.

World Rugby conducted a review of the evidence and concluded that it wasn’t safe or fair for transwomen to compete against women. Ross Tucker patiently explains on Twitter that it isn’t one single characteristic that results in the advantage men have over women but the combination and interplay between them. Even if you can control one e.g. height or weight there are still other factors that provide an advantage e.g. strength, reach, heart and lung capacity.

this is just the way we as humans decide to segregate sports sadly and you can make whatever shallow judgements you want about athletes you've never met or even seen in person but ultimately it's
just ignorant
It worked segregated by sex for a very long time now. Youve given no good reason to change that.

and frankly pretty offensive and imo ludicrous to suggest that cis
men would come out as one of the most stigmatised minorities around and like deal with all this bs I've had to deal with since I came out JUST so they can maybe win some meaningless sports competition
Meaningless to whom? I love my sport, I dont want men in it, men would make it unsafe for me and frankly the team without men would lose every time. You give us sportswomen a good enough reason and we might reconsider, probably not though.

We "award" "mediocre sportsmanship" in this way all the time. If
you're 6'4" and an average goalkeeper, you're probably going to be at
a similar level to a keeper who's a foot shorter and a lot more skilled because you're just at an advantage to begin with so you have to put in less effort. Sadly we're not all created equal and it sucks but human's like to pretend we're all equal in every way when we should in fact just be making our environments more equal

There are a fuck ton of women out there that could be brilliant at a sport but they haven't found it, haven't been pushed to try it, haven't got funding (cos lots of money goes to mens sports and a fraction to womens) to make our environment equal we would need to pay women more, give them better chances to find a sport they love, so not solely football and rugby at school etc.
Here's a great idea, let's start finding money for womens sports, let's get training organised solely for women.
When women are equally represented in all sports at all levels and paid the same as the men at the same levels then we can look at inclusion.
Of course this will never happen.

@Helleofabore

I would also be interested to know who old ignes is relevant to the others on their team. I read the tweets of a 50 something transitioned male playing rugby with and against much younger females. And commenting on how they get beaten… yet cannot acknowledge for one single moment that they are the oldest on the team by decades.

Completely ignorant of the effects of mentrual cycles on female bodies (even suppressed periods can have effect). And that of course, menopausal women will be incredibly rare playing rugby with younger women.

Yes, males often also forget just how discriminated females have been in sport too. Gosh, many of those ‘meaningless sports competitions’ were closed to females to even have an event to participate in. Fuck me! Really??

Oh and here’s the thing! Even in 2021 there is a disparity in availability of high quality coaching opportunities for young girls in some sports. So not only is there pubertal differences, and only just now the effects of the menstrual cycle on female athletes bodies and performance that males will never have. But let’s also remember that many of the males participating in female sports categories will have had better sports opportunities all through their life.

Why again should any male be able to have a position in a female competition that will mean one less female can compete? Particularly when any male who is able bodied can compete in a male competition without any issue at all, giving them two choices if they want. (And a Kent cricketer does just that and sets amazing women’s records as a male)

for reference I'm 27. I agree with you that sports is just really crap for women especially in terms of wanting to be taken seriously. I'd love for the FA to allow men's clubs to sign women players but women's football and more broadly team sport is just ghettoised to an astounding degree. The football culture of England was largely cultivated by women in the eras of the two world wars. I'd actually agree with you again in that I think that disparities in abilities in non contact team sports (hockey, football, netball etc.) would be greatly decreased if only we didn't needlessly gender sports. When I was younger my school actually let kids play whatever sports they wanted. I as a boy at the time played netball during football season and rounders during cricket season and even pre puberty such was the scandal about this that I was not allowed to represent my school in either of these sports as other schools' teams were "girls teams" and apparently a single 10 year old boy was unfair. I'll however, disagree with your point about reserved places or what have you since that's just how sports teams work. The two main arguments for separate men's and women's competitions is that either there's a disparity in ability or that it'd give both groups better representation. I understand the points but I feel that the latter is too often used to pretend the situation is separate but equal when it is in fact anything but. Take football in England and Wales: The premier league is for men only. If a woman (cis or trans) wanted to play football, they'd be forced to play for a WSL team if they wanted to play at the highest level. Even if they're the next Lionel Messi they'd be forced into a competition where the teams compete in men's training and youth grounds and get paid a pittance with abysmal attendance etc.

@334bu

*Height? I'm a trans woman and I'm 5'4"... most cis women I meet are my height or taller.* Yes you are small for your sex, however compared to women you are average height.

with the implication I'm not a woman???

that's out of order frankly...

Take football in England and Wales: The premier league is for men only. If a woman (cis or trans) wanted to play football, they'd be forced to play for a WSL team if they wanted to play at the highest level. Even if they're the next Lionel Messi they'd be forced into a competition where the teams compete in men's training and youth grounds and get paid a pittance with abysmal attendance

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Did you miss the women's World Champions losing to an under 15 boys team. The idea of any female athlete who identifies as a man being chosen by a men's Premier League team is ridiculous. Oh wait a minute, maybe the World Champions weren't trying hard enough.

@TableFlowerss

At the end of the day - people can and will believe what they want, regardless of the evidence presented. That’s their choice.

But to say that men and women are equal in strength is as bonkers as me saying I’m off to the moon tomorrow. It’s simply not true.

The average male is stronger than the average female, end of. There is no discussion to be had. It’s a scientific fact.

no one is arguing that women are just as strong as men on average. This is a straw man and a total fallacy