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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Ace week" in girl guiding.

392 replies

WarriorN · 30/10/2021 11:33

What fresh hell....

Thankfully a number of posters really not impressed. Worrying number think it's entirely appropriate Hmm

https://www.facebook.com/girlguidinguk/photos/a.398392309681/10158689026444682/?type=3

But it was worth reading it to find this excellent analysis of "Ace" identity and issues around it.

bryndisb.substack.com/p/asexuality-queering-the-mundane

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Datun · 31/10/2021 17:01

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

NeverDropYourMooncup · 31/10/2021 17:13

@TedImgoingmad

Nobody has mentioned the boundaries of guide leaders being violated. As with their queer theory UMA, I didn't sign up for having to teach or even discuss this sort of thing as a leader. I'm not qualified to pontificate on other people's sexualities or gender identities. It's one thing if topics better suited to sex ed just happen to come up in the course of a wider conversation, quite another if GGUK is actively promoting it as something that they are supporting, and by extension, individual unit leaders should be/are seen to be supporting. I have been hanging in there - unhappily - as a leader, hoping things get better, but I don't think I can carry on anymore. There are very few women willing to volunteer as leaders, ime, the most we've able to get is a unit helper who will come in every fortnight, and even then, they don't sign up for all the drudge work, the sesson prep and reams of paperwork. Lots of older leaders in my area quit during covid, and have not been replaced. What is GGUK trying to achieve? We are not PSHE trained, we are not counsellors, we are not gender theory experts. Exactly who will be the new people setting up units? Let me guess.
Well, I didn't come back when my work and home situation changed so that I would have been able to do so easily - and the women I knew from when I started have all left over the last few years, not just for retirement or Covid, either. Which is a shame, because I would really have liked to. I would have done.

But now? No thanks.

TedImgoingmad · 31/10/2021 17:22

@Datun a generation steeped in queer theory, porn culture and doing anything and everything for social media validation. Including transwomen, yes.

Datun · 31/10/2021 17:36

I've asked HQ why they deleted my post! Given that the girl guides have specifically made provision for transwomen to be leaders, and they are specifically talking to children about sexuality, I don't see how it can break any guidelines.

Effzeh · 31/10/2021 20:37

I've just worked out why I think this is so red-flaggy.

The reason the ace discussion is significantly different from talking to children about gay/lesbian relationships, is that the kinds of conversations most of us would have with children or younger teenagers centre around the relationship aspect: 'Yes, some women fall in love with men and marry/live with them. But some women fall in love with other women, and some men marry other men.' It's all about love, relationships, domestic setups, and you can have that entire conversation without in any way discussing sexual activity or what people do in bed.

By contrast it's hard to see how you could have a discussion about asexuality without that leading pretty directly onto questions about sexual activity. Of course you could say, 'some people don't fall in love with anyone', but that's not what ace means, and in any case the fact that some people aren't or don't want to be in a love relationship is included in the more neutral 'some people fall in love with...' conversation.

That's why this whole ace celebration feels so wrong - it's pretty much guaranteed to initiate some kind of direct discussion of sexual activity. Angry

Apols if others have made this point before me and I missed it...

beatrice14 · 31/10/2021 21:43

thefarting - being lesbian/bi isn't just about sex- after all a 10-year-old girl could have a crush on a girl

beatrice14 · 31/10/2021 21:44

and it wouldn't be sexual. I agree that asexuality should be told about to teens by teachers, not at guides to younger ones.

WarriorN · 31/10/2021 21:50

Eff, yes exactly.

"Some people choose to live alone" is what we might include in RSE discussion.

Discussions of sexuality at primary level are around family set ups and relationships. There are enough famous roles models where they've chosen to live a very different life.

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WarriorN · 31/10/2021 21:51

(As in remain single and travelled the world etc)

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PurgatoryOfPotholes · 31/10/2021 21:56

Agreed with posters above. It's because the -sexual suffix in asexual has a different function to the one in, for example, bisexual.

In bisexual, it means attracted to both sexes.

In asexual, it means not having sexual feelings.

In terms of meaning, and what we think is appropriate to discuss with that age group, the word on the same footing as heterosexual/homosexual/bisexual is actually aromantic- someone who doesn't experience romantic feelings/urges.

Effzeh · 31/10/2021 22:31

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Agreed with posters above. It's because the -sexual suffix in asexual has a different function to the one in, for example, bisexual.

In bisexual, it means attracted to both sexes.

In asexual, it means not having sexual feelings.

In terms of meaning, and what we think is appropriate to discuss with that age group, the word on the same footing as heterosexual/homosexual/bisexual is actually aromantic- someone who doesn't experience romantic feelings/urges.

Yes, exactly. The obvious response of any 10-13 yo who might encounter GG's 'celebration' of ace is, 'what does ace/asexual mean'?

And there's no way to explain that clearly without focussing directly on sexual activity. It's not about who you love, or who you want to live with, which are the kinds of things a child or younger teenager has a reasonably clear, if immature, understanding of. It's specifically about what you do or do not want to do with your sex organs. Which a child or younger teenager really should not have to think about until they reach the appropriate level of maturity and initiate that conversation or train of thought for themselves, rather than having it imposed on them by wokesters (or worse).

thirdfiddle · 31/10/2021 23:22

effzeh, purgatory that is making a lot of sense, yes. I'm pleased to see this thread on a more sensible track after rather alarming digressions on the earlier pages.

MumofAceDD · 01/11/2021 07:22

Effzeh that is why as I posted upthread, my DD’s asexuality is not something she has discussed with her younger siblings. She is not aromantic. They are two different things. You cannot have a discussion about asexuality without discussing or understanding sex. I don’t think it would be appropriate to discuss sex outside the home or sex education at school for a ten year old. I agree that ‘some people do not want to get married and have babies’ is quite fine for a 10 year old, but moving up the school, that is not what my DD got. She got ‘we are going to talk about sex because sooner or later, you are all going to want to have sex with someone’.

But anyway, ten year olds are not the audience of tweets. Therefore, the furore about this is not just about what is appropriate to teach to 10-14 year olds, it is about the societal place of asexuality. Which from this thread (and the comments under the Times article on the same topic today) is entirely dismissive and hostile.

And I don’t think it Is just because asexuality is impossible to discuss without mentioning sex or what you do with your bits. Arguably, homosexuality, heterosexuality and bisexuality are about what you do with your bits. The whole entire history of marriage is about ensuring that sex is for procreation within a family unit (where and how bits are used). Until relatively recently in time, there were few opportunities for women outside marriage. Until relatively recently, women were condemned for sex outside marriage, particularly if they got pregnant. A whole social system based around what you do with your bits, which young people were (and still are to a large extent) socialised into.

Homosexuality among men was criminalised for a long time (and there was also an attempt to criminalise lesbianism in the 1920s), so society was very exercised about what men (and less so women) did sexually. Gay liberation was all about acceptance of what people did with their bits and with who.

And yet, asexual people are supposed to shut up and hide away because their existence can apparently be used to further the medicalisation of gender non-conformity, it may be a foil for paedophilia, they may be objectified and fetishised as an object of desire, it is part of a woke agenda - what else from this thread?

So it is not only because asexuality is about sex and an organisation which provides extracurricular activities for 10-14 years olds has tweeted about it (to their adult members), it is because broader society a) does not know how to place asexuality given the whole entire history and culture is built around marriage and family as the foundation of society and that is only slowly changing, b) part of that change has been the ever increasing saturation of sexual culture in our society, and c) that same society is fractured or even divided by identity politics and asexuality is seen as part of that, rather than something like homosexuality, ie just how people are (and also forgetting that the freedom if you like, to openly live and define as homosexual was hard fought for).

So rather than being just how someone is and accepted as that, an asexual person - going by this thread - has all this cultural and identity politics baggage to contend with, and I am minded to agree with whoever posted that if you replaced ‘asexual’ with any other characteristic in some of the posts on this thread, such as homosexual, it would quite easily be seen as offensive.

MumofAceDD · 01/11/2021 07:25

*almost entirely dismissive and hostile, not entirely (although the Times comments are entirely dismissive and hostile so far)

Pawprintpaper · 01/11/2021 07:39

Effzeh,

I completely agree. There are two bits to this I think.
Teens, at an appropriate age, exploring their feelings about their sexuality, with a trusted/appropriate adult or organisation. And to be fair there is enough info out there now, particularly on the internet, trained organisations and phse at school. I also think the main thing here has to be about their boundaries, it doesn’t matter how others label themselves and I agree GG should be a safe space for kids to be kids.

A children’s organisation promoting an everyone welcome message for members/leaders - pride, disability awareness etc. (All good so far) Without intrusively exploring or exposing the ins and outs of individuals sexuality. I have already had age-appropriate conversations with my pre-teen about what the extra pointy colours on the trans flag mean - I don’t need to discuss the finer points of whether brown owl is possibly asexual or a menopausal divorcee who prefers cats to men.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 01/11/2021 07:42

if you replaced ‘asexual’ with any other characteristic in some of the posts on this thread, such as homosexual, it would quite easily be seen as offensive.

Are you aware that Girl Guiding did NOT tweet anything for Lesbian Visibility Day?

Datun · 01/11/2021 08:57

The Times have reported on this today, with the paragraph

Angela Salt, chief executive of Girlguiding, said: “A year ago we did a consultation with members asking how inclusive we were as an organisation. Our membership — made up of girls, parents, carers, volunteers and staff — told us that we haven’t got it right, and we needed to do more to become truly inclusive.

I wonder what questions were on that consultation to result in Angela Salt thinking they needed an ace celebration week. And who do they send the consultation to? Do all members get it?

CousinKrispy · 01/11/2021 09:28

MumofaceDD, I'm sure you're right that there's a lot of cultural baggage around asexuality and whether people find it "acceptable" (as if it should be anyone's business!).

I disagree that's it's appropriate or even useful to promote it in this way through a service aimed at children. As others have pointed out, homosexuality/bisexuality can be discussed in terms of relatiinships--"some women fall in love with/get married to women" etc.

But being asexual doesn't necessarily mean aromatic, so it's inaccurate and confusing to tell children "asexual people won't fall in love with or marry anyone".....if you want to define asexuality accurately, it still requires a lot more reference to sexual feelings and/or activities than explaining the diff between hetero and homosexuality.

I'm definitely down with telling kids that not everyone has to get in a relationship, fall in love, get married, have kids, etc in order to have a fulfilling life. And when it's both age-appropriate and is carried out by people with appropriate training, then by all means include asexuality as part of sex education so young people are aware it exists and is perfectly okSmile

CousinKrispy · 01/11/2021 09:29

Aromantic, not aromatic, LOL...

TedImgoingmad · 01/11/2021 10:28

@Datun

The Times have reported on this today, with the paragraph

Angela Salt, chief executive of Girlguiding, said: “A year ago we did a consultation with members asking how inclusive we were as an organisation. Our membership — made up of girls, parents, carers, volunteers and staff — told us that we haven’t got it right, and we needed to do more to become truly inclusive.

I wonder what questions were on that consultation to result in Angela Salt thinking they needed an ace celebration week. And who do they send the consultation to? Do all members get it?

You had to apply to be asked to contribute. I did apply (|as a leader and a parent), but wasn't invited. It was a small sample of people invited to give their views - "over 200" it says on their site (my unit is small, with 20 guides and adults involved, so that gives you an idea of how many people out of the entire guiding movement in the UK were asked). I imagine if you were white, straight and a female, you weren't on their priority list of interviewees. Here's a link about it:

www.girlguiding.org.uk/about-us/diversity-and-inclusion/our-diversity-and-inclusion-journey/

And an extract:

In 2020 we did a lot of research into your experiences in guiding through our diversity and inclusion audit. We worked with experts to make sure we followed best practice. And we talked to people from all areas of guiding, across the UK, to hear their experiences of feeling included and excluded or discriminated against in guiding. This included girls, volunteers, parents and carers, staff and trustees.

Between June and September, we heard from over 200 people through 46 interviews, 17 focus groups and a survey. And we looked at all the research, data and processes we already had. It was a priority for us to hear from those who have been underrepresented in our work. That means we really wanted to hear the experiences of LGBT+ people, people of colour, people at economic disadvantage, disabled people and people with a faith that isn’t well represented in the guiding community, such as Islam, Judaism, Hinduism and Sikhism.

A year ago, they were making redundancies, in a £4m deficit and looking to secure more funding. I've no doubt their current "inclusivity" drive is financially as well as ideologically motivated.

www.thirdsector.co.uk/girlguiding-opens-redundancy-consultations-charity-faces-4m-deficit/management/article/1690898

WarriorN · 01/11/2021 10:57

Ace isn't part of lgbt.

Ace people aren't persecuted and killed for their sexuality or lack of.

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Theeyeballsinthesky · 01/11/2021 11:00

Angela’s background doesn’t scream lots of expertise on safeguarding…

www.girlguiding.org.uk/what-we-do/our-stories-and-news/news/welcome-our-new-ceo-angela-salt-obe/

PumpkinGin · 01/11/2021 11:00

I have been reading the thread about ACE and girl guiding on AIBU.

It appears that some mums are really happy because GG discussed asexuality, lack of sexual feelings and also teaches the girls how to use tampax. The girl in question was 10.

I have also learned that you can be asexual and still “be horny” and agree to have lots of sex with people.

And finally I have learned that the identity of being asexual (and maybe others) is so important to some people that it is essential that society is saturated with it. They need to feel seen and validated. This includes children.

I also understand that many people don’t have a problem with adults talking about sexual identity and implications with children.

I cannot express how horrified I am.

ArtemesiaK · 01/11/2021 11:18

I'm obviously very sheltered because, before I read this thread, I had never heard of "ACE" and I'm old! I've known people who seem happy to live alone and I've never felt the need to question whether they had or wanted sex. Do they feel that they are being discriminated against?
What business is this of anyone but themselves, and why do they have to declare it, especially to children?!
Sick to the back teeth of seeing the Rainbow in all it's variations shoved down everyone's throats, especially kids'.......

MummBRaaarrrTheEverLeaking · 01/11/2021 11:28

Is there nowhere now, where girls can go, and not have to think about who they are or not attracted to, who other people are or not attracted to, the vast spectrums of genders, orientations, being validated or validating others? A safe space, single sex, away from the male gaze where they can not have to think about their position in the world in terms of attraction or sex, but just be girls and have fun??

Seems not Sad

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