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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Leeds now

126 replies

Igneococcus · 30/10/2021 07:24

Students and staff demand their vice-chancellor and senior employees to include preferred pronouns:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c62b8978-38ea-11ec-b83a-bd8490b9f48d?shareToken=36bc0edfe8d32becd4adb61ef97d8822

OP posts:
Whitefire · 30/10/2021 10:13

The fact that university is now a commodity is one of the reasons this has taken hold. Students see themselves as buying a service therefore they get overall control of how that service is delivered.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 30/10/2021 10:14

@TeamRex

using the YP means you outwoke the woke and can’t be disagreed with.

It seems a good tactic at first, but what are the other principles you are buying into by going down that route?

Agreed it's a band-aid and I'm waiting for Prof. Wintermute do something to persuade his fellow drafters to rescind the Yogyakarta Principles at least until they are drafted after appropriate consultation.

For the rest Solzhenitsyn and Vaclav Havel have some advice from previous times:

Solzhenitsyn: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4382551-Live-not-by-lies-Solzhenitsyn-no-tambourines-involved?

I think it can safely be assumed that the overwhelming majority of shopkeepers never think about the slogans they put in their windows, nor do they use them to express their real opinions. That poster was delivered to our greengrocer from the enterprise headquarters along with the onions and carrots. He put them all into the window simply because it has been done that way for years, because everyone does it, and because that is the way it has to be. If he were to refuse, there could be trouble. He could be reproached for not having the proper decoration in his window; someone might even accuse him of disloyalty. He does it because these things must be done if one is to get along in life. It is one of the thousands of details that guarantee him a relatively tranquil life "in harmony with society," as they say.

Obviously the greengrocer is indifferent to the semantic content of the slogan on exhibit; he does not put the slogan in his window from any personal desire to acquaint the public with the ideal it expresses. This, of course, does not mean that his action has no motive or significance at all, or that the slogan communicates nothing to anyone. The slogan is really a sign, and as such it contains a subliminal but very definite message. Verbally, it might be expressed this way: "I, the greengrocer XY, live here and I know what I must do. I behave in the manner expected of me. I can be depended upon and am beyond reproach. I am obedient and therefore I have the right to be left in peace." This message, of course, has an addressee: it is directed above, to the greengrocer's superior, and at the same time it is a shield that protects the greengrocer from potential informers. The slogan's real meaning, therefore, is rooted firmly in the greengrocer's existence. It reflects his vital interests. But what are those vital interests?

Let us take note: if the greengrocer had been instructed to display the slogan "I am afraid and therefore unquestioningly obedient;' he would not be nearly as indifferent to its semantics, even though the statement would reflect the truth.

VH: 1978: hac.bard.edu/amor-mundi/the-power-of-the-powerless-vaclav-havel-2011-12-23

KittenKong · 30/10/2021 10:17

On twitter... and the people that I have met who went to Leeds are very intelligent, smart and logical thinking people - when did they start doing courses in TellyTubby studies?

Leeds now
Violetparis · 30/10/2021 10:19

This request isn't just happening in universities. I work for a big public sector organisation, on a staff meeting on Teams someone put in the chat a request for the speakers/senior leads to declare their pronouns at the start of team meetings as it was a good way to show inclusivity. It got about 20 likes, the most popular posts in chat in Teams staff meetings get a few hundred. I can see this escalting.

Ellewoods20 · 30/10/2021 10:19

This is my uni Confused this is also the first I’ve ever heard of it so it’s definitely not a widespread thing.

KittenKong · 30/10/2021 10:23

I haven’t seen it in much in my industry thank god - but I’m seeing the extended pride flag flying on construction sites. Eh? I can’t imagine there being many wee flowers driving diggers or lugging pipes.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 30/10/2021 10:25

@Violetparis

This request isn't just happening in universities. I work for a big public sector organisation, on a staff meeting on Teams someone put in the chat a request for the speakers/senior leads to declare their pronouns at the start of team meetings as it was a good way to show inclusivity. It got about 20 likes, the most popular posts in chat in Teams staff meetings get a few hundred. I can see this escalting.
Some NGOs and VCOs have done this for a year or so now. And, not content with that, they invite all the attendees to do it: "We'll give you a couple of minutes."

Not one of them ever declares whether they have a conflict of interest in re: if this accrues ally points for the individuals who make the request or enforce it - nor if it counts towards SW WEI submissions.

Alektopteryx · 30/10/2021 10:28

@Whatwouldscullydo

You could be doing something useful with your lives, you know. There'squite a lotneeds sorting

The scary thing is it kinda all stops here.

Once us oldies leave this world, these people will be the parents akd grand parents of the next generations.

Tbe ability to put together an argument, firm.an.opinion, exercise critical thinking etc it will all just die out with us.

What will this mean for future medical and scientific discoveries.

Its bloody terrifying.

The Endarkenment

Terfydactyl · 30/10/2021 10:30

@Igneococcus

It's a sad day when we can't swear on Mumsnet anymore.
What. When the fuck did the no swearing come in. Ffs. Can no fucking thing ever stay the fucking same? Fucks sake I need the sweary outlet, it's a must for this fucking cunt.
Datun · 30/10/2021 10:33

Placemarking to see whether or not the Vice Chancellor caves or gets the spine starch out.

Datun · 30/10/2021 10:34

@Ellewoods20

This is my uni Confused this is also the first I’ve ever heard of it so it’s definitely not a widespread thing.
Course it isn't. It's a minority of students thoroughly enjoying their little bit of power.
Imnobody4 · 30/10/2021 10:36

Thanks to Maya the Vice Chancellor can't agree.

andyoldlabour · 30/10/2021 10:38

"Several Russell Group universities have asked lecturers to take new training on “cisgender privilege”."

Seriously?
Given what has happened to Kathleen Stock this week, any credibility that universities had, has now well and truly gone.

CharlieParley · 30/10/2021 10:39

@FreeBritnee

Why is this THE thing that’s causing so much mania? If it was climate change I’d completely understand, but fucking pronouns again. I honestly don’t understand.
Because it's the best and easiest way to force others to make a statement of faith or out themselves as a disbeliever.

It's win/win. They cannot lose. One the one hand you get more people to go along with your belief, and it doesn't matter if people are merely doing it because they are compelled to or because they are clueless (every single statement of faith strengthens your movement), on the other hand you get to identify more people to target with harassment campaigns.

And for such minimal effort, too. This is exactly like the mandatory statements of belief we all had to do in the totalitarian state I grew up in. It doesn't matter that we didn't actually believe what we professed to believe. Those statements helped to prop up the regime. As long as we went along with it, as long as we were too scared to dissent, the regime was safe to continue.

Theodore Dalrymple said this about the effect that mandatory professions of faith, however insincere, have on people:

“Political correctness is communist propaganda writ small. In my study of Communist societies, I came to the conclusion that the purpose of Communist propaganda was not to persuade or convince, nor to inform, but to humiliate; and therefore, the less it corresponded to reality the better. When people are forced to remain silent when they are being told the most obvious lies, or even worse when they are forced to repeat the lies themselves, they lose once and for all their sense of probity. To assent to obvious lies is to co-operate with evil, and in some small way to become evil oneself. One’s standing to resist anything is thus eroded, and even destroyed. A society of emasculated liars is easy to control. I think if you examine political correctness, it has the same effect and is intended to.”

This is an accurate explanation of what went on, and it applies here, too.

And I have educated myself about queer theory, the doctrine of gender identity and and the lives of transgender people, their struggles, their needs and their beliefs about themselves.

I have concluded that implementing the doctrine of gender identity is not necessary to help transgender people live safe and happy lives. Because the doctrine of gender identity is evil in my view and implementing it will harm not just society and female people in particular, but also children and transgender people themselves.

I believe that demanding that I use preferred pronouns or state my own is asking me to co-operate with evil and for me to become, in a small way, evil myself by endorsing the ideology and contributing to the social pressure on non-believers to participate in the lie.

So I don't. But that outs me immediately. The only way forward that protects people from being made unwilling participants in an ideology that should have no place in public institutions in a democracy, and to protect dis-believers is for the university to refuse these demands.

PeriConfused · 30/10/2021 10:52

@andyoldlabour

"Several Russell Group universities have asked lecturers to take new training on “cisgender privilege”."

Seriously?
Given what has happened to Kathleen Stock this week, any credibility that universities had, has now well and truly gone.

This horrified me this morning I cannot get my head around the term and the fact that people genuinely believe the shit I have put up with as a woman (adult human female) is a privilege I started reading about this a year or so ago, have managed to 'peak' my DH and a few others in that time and come to this board for solace and rational discussion. What I read in the paper and see on line defies belief We have a clear dictionary definition of female and being born female has never granted privilege in my experience. Barking mad
KittenKong · 30/10/2021 11:02

I must remember that when I think of my great grandmother who died after having a back street aborting, leaving young children. So much privilege. How does this C-priv work exactly? Because all I can see it bullies screaming their heads off and trying to intimidate people. Bully privilege eh?

BraveBananaBadge · 30/10/2021 11:18

Only skim read so apologies if the answer's in the article, but how does it come to this? "Demands", fundraisers, talk of tribunals etc? Would this be something that would have had to be raised and dealt with in an 'unsatisfactory' way to be elevated to this stage, or have they just gone all in with their ransom campaigns for maximum drama and 'most oppressed' publicity?

Where's the conversation that sees these things tackled constructively? Because they surely can be. Is this all performative?

We don't see any other group acting this way to be heard. This is in no way for the greater good and these students look increasingly stupid. Everything crossed that Leeds doesn't cave to this idiocy.

Whatwouldscullydo · 30/10/2021 11:22

How does this C-priv work exactly? Because all I can see it bullies screaming their heads off and trying to intimidate people. Bully privilege eh?

Its all such a first world problem isn't it. I'm sure the girls dying in.menstrul huts or being jailed fir a miscarriage are all about their cis privilege. 50 percent of them, if they lived elsewhere they'd not even be allowed an education. A building where they can learn and become able to he employed and self sufficient whilst simultaneously dictate who called them what and what books should be removed from the library , would be something completely inaccessible to them.

Packingsoapandwater · 30/10/2021 11:25

@RightsHoardingStegasaurus

This is what happens when people don't have real problems.

"Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times.” G. Michael Hopf

Imv, the staff members advocating for this will be the over-promoted managers who have senior roles, but don't actually produce any work. They get involved in things like this becayse they have too much time on their hands and not enough responsibility.

The students will be the ones from comfortable backgrounds who don't have to work part time jobs and have no idea of what the real world is like. Leeds, unfortunately, has quite a share of these people. I once saw a very arrogant undergrad argue with an Arabic-speaking, researcher who'd just conducted a two year research programme in the Occupied Territories on a particular issue concerning Palestine, because "the Guardian newspaper" has reported it differently.

It really had to be seen to be believed.

BraveBananaBadge · 30/10/2021 11:26

Eg being affronted at an IT glitch is just the height of self-consciousness and inadequacy. It's the kind of thing that crops up all the time so to take it personally is insane. However it's certainly fair enough to flag it up and pursue the change on the system as yes, essentially this may be a problem for a small amount of people. But surely that's an internal matter and not something to go full guerrilla tactics on.

TheMarzipanDildo · 30/10/2021 11:32

It’s all unis that are like this I think.

MidsomerMurmurs · 30/10/2021 11:34

Wow. I see Aunt Lydia has been steaming through the thread with her cattle prod deleting any uses of a word starting with F.

Wow.

Under his eye.

Tanith · 30/10/2021 11:44

"Chilling bit of video, NecessaryScene all those politicians!! All spouting the same sh*t."

Exactly the same. Almost word for word.

bordersmidgebites · 30/10/2021 11:45

Our Cis priveledge is that they deign you try and educate us , making us more privileged than say an earthworm

andyoldlabour · 30/10/2021 11:50

The comments section was pretty unanimous, which was heartening, although we will probably witness the appearance of someone soon, scolding us for reading the "wrong" news.

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