Urging change of gender to be criminalised - The Times article

[ShrillSiren]

I've just seen this article in The Times come up on Twitter.

Does anyone have a share token as this looks like huge news.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/urging-change-gender-criminalised-trans-rights-lgbtq-0vw7trcj2

I agree, we need to keep the phrase "gender identity" off the statute books because it seems to mean different things to differentiate people. Only yesterday, some clown bleating about being an asexual representing model showing off their bog standard pseudo bondage lingerie as if it was a new thing.

@Aethelthryth

Anything which closes down Mermaids has to be good news; but I think that this legislation is going to be very difficult to draft: the devil will be in the detail

This. The headlines are one thing but actually crafting legislation that’s helpful is going to be difficult.

If the proposed law is as confused and unclear as the article, and does not define terminology clearly, accurately and in non-circular, replicable terms, it's going to be a law that is as bad as the GRA that got us into this mess in the first place.

Just hoping that intelligent people who understand the issues are used in the consultation. The thought that this could make official, the idea that everyone has innate gender identity as elegaic suggests might happen is terrifying.

Laws should be using the legal definitions of words and gender identity isn’t a legally defined term, which leaves a lot of risk of malicious or unintentional misinterpretation.

Is it conversion therapy to suggest a gay person change their gender, the result of which means they don't identify as gay?

This bill has been widely understood as a trogan horse getting gender ideology on the statute books and effectively banning talking therapies for children with gender dysphoria by framing anything other than affirmation of trans identity as "conversion therapy". This stuff is "hidden" within some very sensible proposals on banning actual conversion therapy, which does still happen.

This article isn't clear, but it seems to be saying that the government are intending to shoehorn in a ban on organisations like Mermaids from operating.

Although I would love to see Mermaids disbanded I don't understand what's happening here at all.

Will this bill effectively ban any attempts to help kids with gender dysphoria?!

It doesn't make a lot of sense, clarification needed!

The article is very unclear and, as others have pointed out, seems to be two different articles welded together.

Persuading children to change their "gender" is one thing, persuading them to change their "gender identity" quite another. The first would cover Mermaids, the second, presumably, Transgender Trend and its supporters.

I would be very interested to know where this story has come from. Has the journalist simply misunderstood what is being proposed? Or is he being briefed - as the article suggests - by government sources in the know?

I agree that it is going to be very very difficult to draft this legislation in a way that makes any sense.

Another here who finds the article and Gov press release very confusing but Sex Matters say it is a bad thing - ‘just 6 weeks to stop this. Write to @BorisJohnson @trussliz
and tell them to "press pause"

mobile.twitter.com/SexMattersOrg?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

What has pleasedme is the discussions about all this becoming front page/page 4 stuff, and whole pages worth of commentary.
People who normally stay away from this stuff are starting to see it.
This can only be good.

This from the government statement offers some hope I think:
The government is also keen to safeguard under 18s, who are often targeted at a young age due to their vulnerability. Future laws will therefore place a particularly strong emphasis on preventing children undergoing any practices considered to be conversion therapies.

I'm hoping that this phrase preventing children undergoing any practices considered to be conversion therapies light will include all the gaslighting of children from organisations telling them collectively or individually that they might be born in the wrong body if....

Hopefully it might stop lobby groups offering to work individually (mentoring) or collectively (groupwork) with LGBT children in schools?

On GB news now 0940.

The consultation document is now live on gov.uk. Sorry. I don't know how to do links from my phone, so I can't include a link, but it
includes this, in the introduction

'Our proposals are universal and protect everyone, whatever their sexual orientation and whether they are transgender or not. An attempt to change a person from being attracted to the same-sex to being attracted to the opposite-sex will be treated in the same way as the reverse scenario. This is also the case should a person try to change another from being transgender or to being transgender. It is important that a person experiencing gender dysphoria is able to openly explore what works for them without feeling pressured into any particular outcome. The government is determined to ensure that no person is put on a clinical pathway that is not right for them, and that young people are supported in exploring their identity without being encouraged towards one particular path. Forcing or coercing a person into this position would be considered conversion therapy.'

Yes, someone I know elsewhere said "LGB-A have warned that TRAs want to get 'gender identity' onto the statue books and it's extremely dangerous. 'gender identity' isn't in law at the moment, and it is self ID

This next 6 week consultation is the big battle Kate and Bev were talking about at LGBA.

This is a stop what you're doing and get on it moment

The 'government research report' is by a trans activist and will be extremely biased - his focus is 'gender identity conversion therapy'. he was put in place under Theresa May - it's so worrying and we've only got 6 weeks.

Also, in schools and universities there needs to be a ban on LGBT youth groups asking lesbians if they are trans repeatedly."

The good thing is that a bill will have to get through the House of Lords.

Ooh! That's all a bit of a pig's ear, isn't it?

Probably best to keep a weather eye on it to see how it pans out. And have a look at the consultation doc.

But I remain confused!

[quote Hazycoffeek]Another here who finds the article and Gov press release very confusing but Sex Matters say it is a bad thing - ‘just 6 weeks to stop this. Write to @BorisJohnson @trussliz
and tell them to "press pause"

mobile.twitter.com/SexMattersOrg?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor[/quote]
My post is in response to this, the thread moved on.

Need to get on this.

@WarriorN is here anywhere that has a clear explanation of the issues, for and against?

It sounds OK, I have reservations, and I don't think I have seen the pitfalls fully.

All help gratefully received

It's worth noting that Fox killer is trying to take legal action as new cases of children are no longer being prescribed puberty blockers. His latest tweets have information about how this has been the case since December 2020

So the medical professionals are already changing their approach. Thereby taking this out of the hands of charities and lobbyists.

[quote HoardingSamphireSaurus]@WarriorN is here anywhere that has a clear explanation of the issues, for and against?

It sounds OK, I have reservations, and I don't think I have seen the pitfalls fully.

All help gratefully received [/quote]
Apparently sexmatters and TT are preparing briefings.

Given what we have seen with the capture of organisations by the transgender narrative, the erasure of the word women, the deliberate misinterpretation of the Equality Act, the use if hate speech crimes to take gender critical people to court and the impact of cancel culture of gender critical academics, I do not hold out any hope that this will do anything other than make the questioning of those declaring themselves to be trans, a criminal offence. This will result in mental health professionals and counsellors being unable to question the trans narrative and being able to do anything other than affirm and refer to GIDS.

@Fifthtimelucky

The consultation document is now live on gov.uk. Sorry. I don't know how to do links from my phone, so I can't include a link, but it includes this, in the introduction

'Our proposals are universal and protect everyone, whatever their sexual orientation and whether they are transgender or not. An attempt to change a person from being attracted to the same-sex to being attracted to the opposite-sex will be treated in the same way as the reverse scenario. This is also the case should a person try to change another from being transgender or to being transgender. It is important that a person experiencing gender dysphoria is able to openly explore what works for them without feeling pressured into any particular outcome. The government is determined to ensure that no person is put on a clinical pathway that is not right for them, and that young people are supported in exploring their identity without being encouraged towards one particular path. Forcing or coercing a person into this position would be considered conversion therapy.'

Thanks, Fifthtimelucky. this is interesting. The key line is clearly "This is also the case should a person try to change another from being transgender or to being transgender. "

To which I say: good luck with that. How on earth you decide whether someone is or isn't transgender in the first place, let alone change them to being transgender or not transgender, is, I would suggest, a matter very open to debate.

Thanks @WarriorN. I shall have a look later, when I get back from work.

It feels too important not to add my voice and I want to do it full justice!