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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Kathleen Stock has resigned

380 replies

nevernomore · 28/10/2021 17:13

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/kathleen-stock-resigns-from-universuty-of-sussex-after-trans-rights-row-h0pns6lds

I wish she hadn't. Bullies should not be allowed to win. It just emboldens them.

OP posts:
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CharlieParley · 29/10/2021 20:20

Maybe I should add that I had an analysis of domestic terrorism in Europe published some years ago. One of the important things that goes into prevention is to understand the ideology behind known terrorist groups, understand how that ideology develops over time, what new groups pick up that ideology and observe carefully at what point they tipped over into violent action and, of course, how the evolving ideology spreads and influences the next generations. And then use what we know to step in before new generations are radicalised and before new groups and, increasingly today, lone wolves escalate to acts of terror.

Kind of the idea behind PREVENT. And if the issue of Islamist terrorism and the surrounding political landscape wasn't so expedient, I believe we would be using that program far more effectively than we currently do.

So comparing the language used by these particular trans extremists with that of a known left-wing domestic terror group is perfectly acceptable. Noting that there are striking similarities in their disregard for the law, for democracy, for liberalism and for the rights of their fellow citizens to enjoy and exercise their human rights without harassment, intimidation or violence is simply stating fact.

If you don't like these extremists being called out for their behaviour crossing a line, maybe you ought to berate them to change their ways. Not us.

Your chiding is completely wasted on me by now. It would have worked three years ago, even after that first meeting with those aggressive trans extremist thugs trying to scare us away. But given what I understand about the aims of this movement now, I just don't care anymore what anyone thinks of me for opposing self-id and calling out extremists for their extremist behaviour.

CatherinaJTV · 29/10/2021 20:25

I think everyone outside this board knows who the extremists are, tbh.

CharlieParley · 29/10/2021 20:25

Thanks for the laugh!

ArabellaScott · 29/10/2021 20:26

I'm not academic and know nothing about academia.

I know that males in balaclavas letting off smoke bombs, and harassing and targeting a woman is terrorism.

This is terrorism:

terfisaslur.com/

ArabellaScott · 29/10/2021 20:27

@CatherinaJTV

I think everyone outside this board knows who the extremists are, tbh.
No, Catherina. Women are not extremists for believing that biological sex matters and that women's rights need protecting.
TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 29/10/2021 20:30

@CatherinaJTV

I think everyone outside this board knows who the extremists are, tbh.
No matter what you take that statement to imply it is self evidently not true.
LastSummerHere · 29/10/2021 20:35

@CatherinaJTV

I think everyone outside this board knows who the extremists are, tbh.

LMFAO. Yes, they do. Increasingly so.😂🤣

seventyfits · 29/10/2021 20:57

I don't know if anyone's posted this already, but Caroline Hardman, presumably Kathleen's literary agent, has posted on Twitter that she is happy to pass on any messages of support twitter.com/LittleHardman/status/1453999349906788354?s=20

NotBadConsidering · 29/10/2021 21:16

@AssassinatedBeauty

Interesting what *@CatherinaJTV* thinks is a "nasty sentiment" worth commenting on...
MargaritaPie disappears and CatherinaJTV appears instead, and the focus is always shifted from the words of the actual extremists to something else. I suspect they think they’re doing a fantastic job in derailment, but they actually just highlight the gaslighting of actual events common to TRAs.

See also, the BBC Cotton ceiling article, where all the TRA focus has been on the sample size, but there hasn’t been a single condemnation of the acts described in the article nor the comments by the cyclist or YouTuber.

BlackForestCake · 29/10/2021 21:21

If you’d said to Baader-Meinhof that middle-aged lesbians were the oppressors and that bullying university lecturers out of their jobs was the road to liberation, they’d have told you you were nuts.

OperationDessertStorm · 29/10/2021 21:26

@Siablue

I think that Sussex have failed under the duty of prevent. It is very clear that you can hold whatever views you like and have the right to protest but what you do not have the right to do is be threatening to others. Any student who thinks violence is justified for any cause you be reported. Doxing someone and pudding against their door. Making up multiple lies about them all cross the line.

A lot of academics seem to be struggling to understand what falls under the definition of harassment. Most workplaces have mandatory training in dignity at work on harassment. They know what harassment is. They know what was happening to Kathleen. Pretending that she was the harasser for holding her view and politely expressing them is a joke.

Exactly. They know it’s harassment.

Imagine the Christian society had done these protests because they disagreed with her spreading her views about being a Lesbian.

Or the rugby team had done these protests because they disagreed with her spreading her views on women’s rights.

It’s selective protection.

jeansnothappening · 29/10/2021 23:01

Agree @Forgotthebins, the ridiculous, badly written Instagram post from Antiterf Sussex doesn't sound like it was written by students. In fact it reads as though someone's trying extra hard to sound like 'genuine angry students'. If the university really wanted to track down the perpetrators, I wonder how hard would it be to find out who's behind the Instagram account?

SpringCrocus · 30/10/2021 00:01

@CatherinaJTV

I think everyone outside this board knows who the extremists are, tbh.
Oh do bore off @CatherinaJTV. Go peddle your nasty ideology elsewhere.
morningtoncrescent62 · 30/10/2021 01:21

I've been thinking about the tone of the messages from Sussex Uni, and from Kathleen. The very firm defence of academic freedom - three years too late - from the university suggests they know they're facing a major lawsuit. Kathleen recommended barristers and referred to getting good legal advice, and ended with 'on to brighter things'. I think she's a) suing the hell out of Sussex, and b) has something else lined up, possibly not in a university at all.

I know that Kathleen's put up with horrendous abuse for a sustained period, I understand her need to get out, and nothing detracts from the courage and poise with which she's handled the situation. But I'm concerned that the bullies in quite a few universities will have scented blood now. They know they can bully out a very well-known, high-profile, successful professor. What's going to happen to the lesser-known feminist academics, the ones without the big profiles, who are more easily dispensable by their institutions? Surely they must be feeling very vulnerable now. How do we help them?

CharlieParley · 30/10/2021 02:40

But I'm concerned that the bullies in quite a few universities will have scented blood now. They know they can bully out a very well-known, high-profile, successful professor. What's going to happen to the lesser-known feminist academics, the ones without the big profiles, who are more easily dispensable by their institutions? Surely they must be feeling very vulnerable now. How do we help them?

I've been worrying about that, too, morningtoncrescent62. I have friends working at universities in Glasgow and Edinburgh and for those who spoke up in defence just of academic freedom the situation is already difficult. Those known as women's rights campaigners have been facing unhinged harassment campaigns for years, with their university leadership not saying anything at all to defend them.

And the overlap between the organisers of these harassment campaigns and violent extremist activists (like the one who attacked Julie Bindel) is very concerning.

I mean it is just not fucking normal that in Scotland in 2021 we've got women lecturers getting security briefings or even guards walking them across campus because they've had credible threats for the crime of speaking up for upholding women's existing legal rights. And it's just incomprehensible to me that the leadership of our universities isn't saying no, no, that is not acceptable and any staff member and student engaged in these harassment campaigns will be disciplined and if necessary fired or excluded.

Most of the people doing this at Edinburgh University for instance are proudly doing it in public! It's not like the university leadership couldn't take a stand. They can. They choose not to.

And for someone like me, from a country with a long and awful history of totalitarian regimes this is just...I keep waiting for the Scottish Government to put a stop to it.

But as I said earlier, if you understand how critical theories work and how the critical social justice movement reaches its goals, it all makes a dreadful sense. Those are deeply undemocratic, intolerant ideologies. Think about that Amnesty Ireland statement demanding that women's rights campaigners opposing self-id opposing self-id be denied political representation - that wasn't done in error. It wasn't a bug, that was a feature representative of this movement. (If you read the texts they produce, this is all said openly, too. They're not shy about this stuff. They know they're right and the ends justify the means.)

Back to how we can support these women. Well if you know any of these women (and even if you don't), make yourself known to them if you can. My friends have asked for things like this: if they want to attend university events, go with them so they can see a friendly face. Write to the university leadership expressing your support for them. Write letters to the local press in support. Organise a protest to take place when the governing body meets and demand they defend the academic freedom of their staff. Organise local meetings about academic freedom. Send them cards in support. Flowers to the office. The more visible your support, the better.

Ultimately though, the only ones who can really step in and stop the harassment are our governments. So write to your MP and to all 8 of your MSPs if you're in Scotland. Find the department responsible for upholding academic freedom, employment rights and so on. Write to them. If there's a committee on higher education, same thing. Ask them to step in. Ask for meetings. In my experience meetings with politicians are better than just email exchanges. And if you do correspond, write an actual letter. They get far more emails now, so letters stand out.

Above all, don't lose patience and don't lose heart. Every day more women are waking up to this. And the more women wake up, the more women want to help.

countrygirl99 · 30/10/2021 06:14

@CatherinaJTV

I think everyone outside this board knows who the extremists are, tbh.
I don't think the majority feel the way you think you do. Maybe you need to get out more.
StandUpStraight · 30/10/2021 07:03

Douglas Murray writes about this in The Telegraph this morning:

“For years Stock has had to endure slander, lies, bullying and hounding at the University of Sussex and further afield. Primarily from "Trans activists". This reached a particular fever pitch this year with increased threats of violence against her. After this latest round Stock's university finally actually said something slightly supportive of her and even of the principle of academic freedom.

But it was too little and too late. Yesterday Stock announced that she is leaving the University of Sussex. She has thanked the university authorities for their recent support but has said that recent years have been "an absolutely horrible time for me and my family." I do not doubt it. Today the inquisition still comes for heretics. But it comes principally for women who believe that women exist. The campaign against them is orchestrated by some of the nastiest, ugliest, and most deranged people anyone could conjure up outside of a painting by Hieronymus Bosch. The University sector was lucky to have Stock. It is shameful that they have lost her.”

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/10/29/woe-betide-world-biden-listens-closely-pope-francis/

NecessaryScene · 30/10/2021 07:30

Kim Thomas at The Critic: Bullied

The persecution of Kathleen Stock is not about free speech

Name checks a few of our favourite people:

Meanwhile, those who have the power to stop this — the police, the social media giants, the universities — have either ignored it or been actively complicit. The many fine words expended on the rights of academics like Stock to free speech, while well-meaning, are part of the problem: this is not about what women should and shouldn’t be allowed to say. It’s about how a group of bullying men are silencing women through aggression, intimidation and violence. It’s about the tantrums of men — including prominent leftists like Jolyon Maugham, Owen Jones and Billy Bragg — who cannot contain their rage that women won’t do what they’re told.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 30/10/2021 08:40

Events at Sussex may well have emboldened students elsewhere although I'm unclear if they're hoping to unseat the Vice-Chancellor over this.

Students and staff at Leeds University have called on their vice-chancellor and senior employees to include gender pronouns when introducing themselves in meetings.

They also said that the vice-chancellor, Simone Buitendijk, should state her preferred gender pronouns in her email signature.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c62b8978-38ea-11ec-b83a-bd8490b9f48d?shareToken=36bc0edfe8d32becd4adb61ef97d8822

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4388414-Leeds-now

Rhannion · 30/10/2021 09:13

[quote EmbarrassingHadrosaurus]Events at Sussex may well have emboldened students elsewhere although I'm unclear if they're hoping to unseat the Vice-Chancellor over this.

Students and staff at Leeds University have called on their vice-chancellor and senior employees to include gender pronouns when introducing themselves in meetings.

They also said that the vice-chancellor, Simone Buitendijk, should state her preferred gender pronouns in her email signature.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c62b8978-38ea-11ec-b83a-bd8490b9f48d?shareToken=36bc0edfe8d32becd4adb61ef97d8822

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4388414-Leeds-now[/quote]
The vice chancellor should tell them to fuck off!

Helleofabore · 30/10/2021 09:20

I am laughing very hard at pp’s ‘people away from MN know who the extremists are’!!!

REPENT MOTHERFUCKER!!!

Nah… was it that pp who tried to convince us all that there were only a couple of thousand ‘GCs’ (their term) in the UK and that this was the largest grouping in the world and not indicative at all. (Maybe posters didn’t see the thousands of women protesting in Spain recently) That there was 100 or so here on MN and that was it. It seemed that the polls on AIBU never happened where the numbers were above 2000 just on MN either.

And that we have always been framed as the extremists. Yes… women dressed in dinosaur suits win the extremist stakes above flare/smoke bomb brandishing (Grenfell, the Bordeaux lesbians threatened by a male with a flare, Sussex uni), bullying (Manchester pride, the physicality of protests at the Netflix walk out, and the ‘witch’ screamer marching their walking aid up to women and spitting witch in their face), and completely inappropriate antics (writing rapey messages at a women’s conference and shouting down a memorial session remembering women dying of male violence, and the antics of protesters outside the session on women in prison this week).

I really think that the projection is hilarious and that some posters need to start producing evidence to support their rather tired trope.

ScreamingMeMeSawUs · 30/10/2021 09:48

And here is the Fair Cop report Sarah refers to (in downloadable pdf format).

How did we get into this mess, where noble efforts to combat ‘hate’ have made misogyny hard baked into policing? And how do we get out of this?

Report now out.
#TheInvisibleStrand

faircop.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/The-Invisible-Strand.pdf

twitter.com/WeAreFairCop/status/1452515903267037184?s=20

ArabellaScott · 30/10/2021 09:53

it is just not fucking normal that in Scotland in 2021 we've got women lecturers getting security briefings or even guards walking them across campus because they've had credible threats for the crime of speaking up for upholding women's existing legal rights.

Yep.

georgarina · 30/10/2021 09:58

And yet Netflix trans activist Ashlee Marie Preston has dozens of violent racist tweets against Mexicans and Asians and not only has her job but no one even reported on it.