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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Kathleen Stock has resigned

380 replies

nevernomore · 28/10/2021 17:13

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/kathleen-stock-resigns-from-universuty-of-sussex-after-trans-rights-row-h0pns6lds

I wish she hadn't. Bullies should not be allowed to win. It just emboldens them.

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5
CatherinaJTV · 29/10/2021 15:24

@AssassinatedBeauty

Interesting what *@CatherinaJTV* thinks is a "nasty sentiment" worth commenting on...
are you all for government control of someone's research funding depending on compliance of other people at a university? Seriously, that's sinister stuff AND not conducive to a leading position in research and development.
HoardingSamphireSaurus · 29/10/2021 15:26

Baader Meinhof gang of RAF/WWII era @CatherinaJTV?

Cos one of them would make you 80+

The other the same age as me, and many other posters here!

Just interested...

CatherinaJTV · 29/10/2021 15:26

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

What a nasty sentiment. As if a random prof in, say, biology or chemistry at Sussex had any role to play in this whole affair. The idea that government would or even should be using research funds to keep universities politically in line is horrendous.

Yeah! That's the price those professors, the faculty, organisation and student body pay for not standing up to bullies. There will always be repercussions. And it won't be the gfovernment, It will be serious research facilities who don't want to pump millions of research dollar into a faculty that is discredited, morally bankrupt, ethically suspect!

In other words, it's business. Not government policy!

no "research dollar" is pumped into the School of Philosophy. Anywhere, really. The call was for UKRI funding (so MRC, BBSRC, ESRC money, medicine, biotechnology, physics and engineering) not to go to Surrey. That is ludicrous.
HoardingSamphireSaurus · 29/10/2021 15:27

are you all for government control of someone's research funding depending on compliance of other people at a university? Seriously, that's sinister stuff AND not conducive to a leading position in research and development.

Again, not the government. At least look it up!

CatherinaJTV · 29/10/2021 15:27

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

Baader Meinhof gang of RAF/WWII era *@CatherinaJTV*?

Cos one of them would make you 80+

The other the same age as me, and many other posters here!

Just interested...

interested but not very well informed. The Rote Armee Fraktion does not fall into WWII times Hmm
CatherinaJTV · 29/10/2021 15:28

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

are you all for government control of someone's research funding depending on compliance of other people at a university? Seriously, that's sinister stuff AND not conducive to a leading position in research and development.

Again, not the government. At least look it up!

so you don't understand how funding streams in the UK work. That's ok.
HoardingSamphireSaurus · 29/10/2021 15:30

Interesting how your frame of reference shifts slightly, all the time!

RAF? Red Army Faction is not the usual understanding of that acronym - which is why I asked...

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 29/10/2021 15:31

so you don't understand how funding streams in the UK work. That's ok. No. Not at all. I have only spent about 30 years looking, writing proposals for various funding streams... and much of it is not governmental!

notthe1Parrot · 29/10/2021 15:39

On LBC now – discussion

CatherinaJTV · 29/10/2021 15:45

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

Interesting how your frame of reference shifts slightly, all the time!

RAF? Red Army Faction is not the usual understanding of that acronym - which is why I asked...

the definition is in the post I was answering to. This is what happened in Germany (22 years after the end of WWII)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Autumn

and the deeds of that RAF cannot be compared to a strongly worded student statement. That's a Godwin right there.

CatherinaJTV · 29/10/2021 15:47

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

so you don't understand how funding streams in the UK work. That's ok. No. Not at all. I have only spent about 30 years looking, writing proposals for various funding streams... and much of it is not governmental!
Then maybe I am missing something. How do you think that the £22 billion research budget from the UK Research and Innovation and the National Academies fund are distributed and how would (or should) a Philosophy prof resigning at a particular influence the allocation of UKRI funds (that don't go to Philosophy).
HoardingSamphireSaurus · 29/10/2021 16:08

Well, the National Academies are the national academies... nonprofit, non governmental institutions.

The UKRI is, at best quasi governmental, being new non-departmental public body sponsored by the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy

My middle name isn't Google.. all of that is really easy to look up!

And who, besides you, said anything about a Philosophy prof resigning at a particular influence the allocation of UKRI funds ?

What was said was that Sus actions would have lnock on effects. They have lowered their standing in the public and research arena. Any potential funding stream would look askance at a funding bid that came from an institute or individual that had been embroiled in any public farrago.

Forgotthebins · 29/10/2021 16:47

Just to bring the discussion back to Kathleen Stock.

I think a lot of “bystanders” who have not been following this closely will assume that she must have done something worse than she did. Reasonable people can’t believe that people are forced out of their jobs on these grounds so they assume that Maya harassed a trans colleague or that Kathleen harassed students. It’s really worth amplifying that all she is accused of is signing something much like a petition and being a trustee of a charity in her free time, and her physical safety on campus could not be guaranteed and she was forced to give up her job.

The statement that Maerchentante shared by the crowd who threatened her out of her job is excellent to share as well. It doesn’t read as though it was written by students worried about harassment by a tutor (which makes sense as she was kind and respectful to her students - if she wasn’t, we would have heard about it). I wonder if the writers even are students - we have no way of knowing but I would guess they are not. It reads in a way which doesn’t reference anything specific about Sussex University, it is pure personal antagonism and a wish to cause harm to an individual. A campus is open, anyone can go there in a mask, let off smoke bombs and put up an Instagram page.

I think bystanders need to see all this. Then they can make up their own mind, and decide whether they want to live in a society where women are forced out of work for thinking out loud about a difficult issue.

Forgotthebins · 29/10/2021 16:56

Also, this is excellent from Sex Matters: exposing disinformation about Kathleen Stock. sex-matters.org/posts/freedom-of-speech/kathleen-stock/

CharlieParley · 29/10/2021 17:17

Read the whole thing and it reminded me a bit of the language that was used by the Baader-Meinhof Group (Red Army Faction). Even though I was born just after they had their biggest impact, they were still ever present in the news and on wanted posters in Germany.

That's not surprising, given that they share an ideological background in Neomarxism. The means that the Baader-Meinhof Gang employed were far more brutal than that of the student protesters, who limited themselves to bullying, harassment, threats and defamation but the language both groups employed is undeniably similar.

missfliss · 29/10/2021 17:21

That's amazing @Forgotthebins.

Perfectly dissects the hatred to her.

CharlieParley · 29/10/2021 17:30

and the deeds of that RAF cannot be compared to a strongly worded student statement.

That's alright then, because they weren't CatherinaJTV. I know it's customary for pro-self-id posters to wilfully misrepresent the arguments of women's rights campaigners opposing self-id, but we're all on the same thread. And Maerchentante compared language with language and rightly so.

That's a Godwin right there.

FFS, is no definition safe anymore? Godwin's law refers exclusively to comparison with Hitler or Nazis. Which was evidently not the case here.

CatherinaJTV · 29/10/2021 17:37

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

Well, the National Academies are the national academies... nonprofit, non governmental institutions.

The UKRI is, at best quasi governmental, being new non-departmental public body sponsored by the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy

My middle name isn't Google.. all of that is really easy to look up!

And who, besides you, said anything about a Philosophy prof resigning at a particular influence the allocation of UKRI funds ?

What was said was that Sus actions would have lnock on effects. They have lowered their standing in the public and research arena. Any potential funding stream would look askance at a funding bid that came from an institute or individual that had been embroiled in any public farrago.

I seriously doubt that most peer reviewers and panel members will have heard of this affair, nor would they think that this would influence a scientific project that they review.
CatherinaJTV · 29/10/2021 17:39

@CharlieParley

and the deeds of that RAF cannot be compared to a strongly worded student statement.

That's alright then, because they weren't CatherinaJTV. I know it's customary for pro-self-id posters to wilfully misrepresent the arguments of women's rights campaigners opposing self-id, but we're all on the same thread. And Maerchentante compared language with language and rightly so.

That's a Godwin right there.

FFS, is no definition safe anymore? Godwin's law refers exclusively to comparison with Hitler or Nazis. Which was evidently not the case here.

Maerchentante quite clearly compared the students' statement to the statement of murderous terrorists. That was intentional and it is gross hyperbole.
MrsMadderRose · 29/10/2021 18:18

I’m not commenting on the historical comparisons as I don’t know much about the groups that have been mentioned, but I am worried about where this is headed. Especially as more allies and previously captured organisations dissociate themselves from the insanity and dodgy tactics, leaving just the most ideologically convicted, righteous and non-law-abiding. We already see plenty of death threats, hints at death threats, pictures that threaten violence, mention of machetes, pipe bombs etc. And we know this ideology attracts some people who are already violent predators or abusers, and some who have a compelling need for power and attention.

If people posted some of the the threats and photos you see from TRAs, in the name of certain other ideologies, they’d cause immediate alarm and be subject to surveillance.

CharlieParley · 29/10/2021 18:22

Maerchentante quite clearly compared the students' statement to the statement of murderous terrorists. That was intentional and it is gross hyperbole.

Is it gross hyperbole though? I am inclined to think of this type of extreme trans activism as a form of domestic terrorism. I certainly think Sussex University should have called on the local PREVENT team months ago to stop the harassment and bullying campaign.

I'm also inclined to think it is right that we start ringing some very loud and very clear alarm bells about these tactics by pro-self-id campaigners. As the statement linked to by Maerchentante makes so unequivocally obvious, even moderates like Kathleen Stock (whose position can be summed up as "sex matters sometimes") are not to be allowed to exercise their human rights freely and without fear of violence or threats. Because she is perceived as part of an oppressor class and anything goes when it comes to fighting the oppressor.

We have already seen this ending in murder in the US where a trans activist extremist murdered a lesbian couple and their son, we have already seen here in the UK vandalism and assault justified by pro-self-id extremists. The aim is to destroy people who are in a position to meaningfully disagree with the doctrine of gender identity in a way that impedes its implementation. The aim is to deter ordinary women from even asking questions about what's going on.

The first time I decided to do just that, I was confronted by a group of extremists, mostly young men in balaclavas, who were completely unhinged, towering over me, screaming obscenities in my face as I walked out of the building (and I mean with their nose barely an inch from mine) when all I did was attend a public meeting as part of a public consultation. I've rarely been so scared, especially since the police warned us not to leave alone as they couldn't guarantee our safety.

You might think it's hyperbole. Considering how that felt for me and the other women at similar meetings, I think we've been far too measured. I think we need to be much much less moderate. In my view, Kathleen Stock's story shows that moderation and appeasement will not work. So let's call this campaign out for what it is: domestic extremism, at times violent extremism. It's a movement that seeks to change laws and influence domestic policy by going outside of the democratic process and seeks to quell any objections by means of harassment, intimidation and bullying and, yes, at times, violence.

If that's hyperbole then I'll proudly wear it. Because I no longer think we can counter this extremism by saying Pretty please, would you stop? Would you consider that I've got rights too?

No. I'm going to say Fuck you and the horse you rode in on. The gloves are off. If you're behaving like extremists, that's what I'll call you.

Siablue · 29/10/2021 19:00

I think that Sussex have failed under the duty of prevent. It is very clear that you can hold whatever views you like and have the right to protest but what you do not have the right to do is be threatening to others. Any student who thinks violence is justified for any cause you be reported. Doxing someone and pudding against their door. Making up multiple lies about them all cross the line.

A lot of academics seem to be struggling to understand what falls under the definition of harassment. Most workplaces have mandatory training in dignity at work on harassment. They know what harassment is. They know what was happening to Kathleen. Pretending that she was the harasser for holding her view and politely expressing them is a joke.

CatherinaJTV · 29/10/2021 19:48

Is it gross hyperbole though? I am inclined to think of this type of extreme trans activism as a form of domestic terrorism.

Read the Wiki link. That was domestic terrorism.

CharlieParley · 29/10/2021 19:52

@CatherinaJTV

Is it gross hyperbole though? I am inclined to think of this type of extreme trans activism as a form of domestic terrorism.

Read the Wiki link. That was domestic terrorism.

Thank you, I studied this stuff at university. In the original language. I really don't need Wikipedia to understand the ideology behind Baader, Meinhof & Co.
ArabellaScott · 29/10/2021 20:01

You might think it's hyperbole. Considering how that felt for me and the other women at similar meetings, I think we've been far too measured. I think we need to be much much less moderate. In my view, Kathleen Stock's story shows that moderation and appeasement will not work. So let's call this campaign out for what it is: domestic extremism, at times violent extremism. It's a movement that seeks to change laws and influence domestic policy by going outside of the democratic process and seeks to quell any objections by means of harassment, intimidation and bullying and, yes, at times, violence.

Completely correct.