BBC responds to backlash to article about lesbians being pressured into sex by some trans women

[FindTheTruth]

BBC spokesperson said: “The article looks at a complex subject from different perspectives and acknowledges it is difficult to assess the extent of the issue.

“It includes testimony from a range of different sources and provides appropriate context. It went through our rigorous editorial processes.

“It is important that journalism looks at issues - even where there are strongly held positions. The BBC is here to ensure debate and to make sure a wide a range of voices are heard.”

attitude.co.uk/article/bbc-responds-to-backlash-to-article-about-lesbians-being-pressured-into-sex-by-some-trans-women-1/26090/

NoNotMeNoSiree

^So's CisWithTheT which is the original hashtag that IStandWithLesbians was set up in protest to.
29k tweets a few hours ago as opposed to about 10k for the latter.^

Thank you for pointing this out in such detail. It really shows how pervasive and deep the rape culture and pressure on lesbians is.

This is a hashtag in response to a BBC article with sections like this.

Extract 1
Another lesbian woman, 26-year-old Chloe*, said she felt so pressured she ended up having penetrative sex with a trans woman at university after repeatedly explaining she was not interested.

They lived near each other in halls of residence. Chloe had been drinking alcohol and does not think she could have given proper consent.

"I felt very bad for hating every moment, because the idea is we are attracted to gender rather than sex, and I did not feel that, and I felt bad for feeling like that," she said.

Ashamed and embarrassed, she decided not to tell anyone.

"The language at the time was very much 'trans women are women, they are always women, lesbians should date them'. And I was like, that's the reason I rejected this person. Does that make me bad? Am I not going to be allowed to be in the LGBT community anymore? Am I going to face repercussions for that instead?' So I didn't actually tell anyone."

Extract 2

One woman reported being targeted in an online group. "I was told that homosexuality doesn't exist and I owed it to my trans sisters to unlearn my 'genital confusion' so I can enjoy letting them penetrate me," she wrote.

Extract 3. Content warning, description of rape

Another reported a trans woman physically forcing her to have sex after they went on a date.

"[They] threatened to out me as a terf and risk my job if I refused to sleep with [them]," she wrote. "I was too young to argue and had been brainwashed by queer theory so [they were] a 'woman' even if every fibre of my being was screaming throughout so I agreed to go home with [them]. [They] used physical force when I changed my mind upon seeing [their] penis and raped me."

end of extracts

Responding to this article with CisWithTheT is like responding to reports of child abuse by priests with WomenWithTheVatican, or responding to the initial coverage of Weinstein with IStandWithFilmProducers.

It is callous and tone-deaf. Yet 29k people have, by your account.

The introduction of the BBC article says Some lesbians say they are increasingly being pressured and coerced into accepting trans women as partners - then shunned and even threatened for speaking out. That was the premise being investigated.

The twitter reaction proves this is indeed the case.

It's not like twitter is an echo chamber where GC people get kicked off for spurious reasons frequently or anything...

The "open letter" is exactly the sort of unhinged rant signed by men on Reddit calling themselves made up names that you'd expect from TRAs. Hilarious.

Just if you be like repeatedly stressing not sleeping with you because you're trans, that's different.
As that shows a prejudice

But lesbians wouldn't need to repeatedly stress they don't want to sleep with tw if some ( some, not all) would stop insisting that they should be willing to.

They're not stressing this just for the fun of it or to hurt anyone, they're responding to homophobia.

I've never in my life had to repeatedly stress that I don't want to sleep with lesbians, because lesbians aren't telling heterosexual women that we're bigoted, prejudiced, genital fetishists or worse than racists for excluding them from our dating pool.

The letter was obviously written very quickly in reaction to the story, and put out the same day I think?

I wonder how many on the TA side are regretting that now and realising that a slightly more... considered response might have been better.

I really, really dislike the use of the coy euphemisms that are being used. TMI FOLLOWS.

'Dating pool' - oh fuck off, as dear Magdalen would have said.

'Sleep with'. Er, no, we're talking about males wanting to put their penises into vaginas or female anuses or female mouths, as part of acts of penetrative sex.

Please let's not play this down.

"Additionally, this article completely overlooks the massive rates of violence faced by transgender people"

Where? Where are all the reports/articles about all this violence? Or do they still mean mis gendering and hurt feelings.

It overlooks it because it doesn't exist.

@SpindleWorl

I really, really dislike the use of the coy euphemisms that are being used. TMI FOLLOWS.

'Dating pool' - oh fuck off, as dear Magdalen would have said.

'Sleep with'. Er, no, we're talking about males wanting to put their penises into vaginas or female anuses or female mouths, as part of acts of penetrative sex.

Please let's not play this down.

Yes, this always irritates me, too. I suspect it's because so much of the rhetoric comes from the US, and American language does often seem to have a very coy turn of phrase.

@JustcameoutGC

I say lets put it to a vote.

Are lesbians by definition transphobic?

Now there is a referendum i could get behind.

It is so scary how the gang closes in to silence these women. This is industrial scale erosion of healthy boundaries and barriers.

AIBU maybe?

What many TRAs call 'literal violence' is any language from women that hurts their feelings. The ideology then goes on to assert, falsely, that the severity and impact of these feelings of hurt will result in mass suicides - all this imagined from a dodgy set of statistics based on a self-selecting sample size of 27 and some data from trans M2F prostitutes in Brazil.

It's all absolute twaddle and I wish the government would make it illegal for people to peddle suicidal ideation to children and young people, particularly the idea that if they don't get what they're told they want that they'll probably kill themselves. So incredibly irresponsible and harmful.

@SpindleWorl

What many TRAs call 'literal violence' is any language from women that hurts their feelings. The ideology then goes on to assert, falsely, that the severity and impact of these feelings of hurt will result in mass suicides - all this imagined from a dodgy set of statistics based on a self-selecting sample size of 27 and some data from trans M2F prostitutes in Brazil.

It's all absolute twaddle and I wish the government would make it illegal for people to peddle suicidal ideation to children and young people, particularly the idea that if they don't get what they're told they want that they'll probably kill themselves. So incredibly irresponsible and harmful.

Yes and on that basis their letter is literal violence to women

I'm sure trans women do face threats of real violence that are reactions to their transness. Toxic masculine culture does not take kindly to gender nonconformity and while mostly society is far more tolerant of especially male femininity than it used to be, there's plenty of thugs who didn't get the memo.

It might not be as widespread as TRAs like to claim, and it is certainly not a result of gender critical feminism or female people asserting boundaries, but let's not make the mistake of minimising it/taking a "this never happens" route. That's their tactic and we are better than that.

So the poll of women talking baout their experiences wasn't good enough and yet the poll on supposed transkids suicide was relevant for months and months of BBC misinformation.

Also Little Lord Orange Juice makes my blood boil!

*about

it might not be as widespread as TRAs like to claim, and it is certainly not a result of gender critical feminism or female people asserting boundaries, but let's not make the mistake of minimising it/taking a "this never happens" route.

My difficulty with this is the selection of the appropriate comparator when considering relative levels of harassment.

I sometimes wonder if some cohorts are comparing levels of harassment to their experience with a previous presentation or set of protected characteristics. E.g., I'd be surprised if white men with gender conforming presentation experienced the level of street harassment that (say) an otherwise comparable black man did.

As women, I wonder how many of us wouldn't have cared to count the number of micro-aggressions or harassment events in the average day? Being beeped at and catcalled by men hanging out of vans while we were waiting at the bus-stop and commuting to work? Being pressed up against during travel? The usual hassle while walking to complete the journey into work and that's pretty much standard before beginning the working day?

@WinterTrees

The letter was obviously written very quickly in reaction to the story, and put out the same day I think?

I wonder how many on the TA side are regretting that now and realising that a slightly more... considered response might have been better.

I tried to read it. Managed to get about a third of the way down.

It was very much written in the style copied from Lunar Landing Doubters or 9/11 'Troofers' - those who believe the attack on the WTC was performed by aliens, or Mossad or something. Written as a stream-of-consciousness, with no structure.

I wonder if it was a group effort, but no one contributing to the draft was willing to give way and perhaps allow the editing of a passage or paragraph, or even allow some sections to-be-dropped. So everything was included. It could have benefited from some substantial editing and a proof-read, but I guess 'folx' couldn't wait for a second draft and sent it off in their excitement.

Interesting that The Guardian is staying away from this subject entirely. Wouldn't they be expected to reprint the letter in full? Surely the authors would expect it to do so. On this occasion perhaps even Viner will be content to watch TOJ dig himself into a hole of his own making, whilst it watches from the sidelines.

I reckon the narrative is now out of the TRA's control, on both social media and IRL and they have insufficient skills and ability to recapture it. Issuing death-and-rape threats on this occasion isn't working. Plus The Guardian will have gay-and-lesbian staff, some of whom might not take kindly to their employer backing rape apologists (again). And it likely can't risk another roasting from Julie Bindel!

It might not be as widespread as TRAs like to claim, and it is certainly not a result of gender critical feminism or female people asserting boundaries, but let's not make the mistake of minimising it/taking a "this never happens" route. That's their tactic and we are better than that.

They are claiming disproportionate levels of violence to this group than to other groups, as a way to cancel out any issues of other groups. In this country that is not true. That is what I was referring to.

@EdgeOfTheSky

In the last couple of weeks we have seen: TRAs protesting a conference about violence against women and girls. TRAs protesting young women raising awareness about drunks spiking. TRAs now saying that lesbians are lying TRAs getting a Bingo game , sold to raise funds for Oxfam, banned because it has the wrong kind of women in it.

If Transwomen want to sit at the table , I would like to see them put in a shift in the kitchen. Doing the feminist heavy lifting. Sticking up for raped, abused, murdered women. Standing in solidarity with women’s causes.

Also, last night, TRAs picketing the WPUK meeting about women in prisons. Several people captured them on film yelling personal abuse to assorted women attendees.

@yourhairiswinterfire

Just if you be like repeatedly stressing not sleeping with you because you're trans, that's different. As that shows a prejudice

But lesbians wouldn't need to repeatedly stress they don't want to sleep with tw if some ( some, not all) would stop insisting that they should be willing to.

They're not stressing this just for the fun of it or to hurt anyone, they're responding to homophobia.

I've never in my life had to repeatedly stress that I don't want to sleep with lesbians, because lesbians aren't telling heterosexual women that we're bigoted, prejudiced, genital fetishists or worse than racists for excluding them from our dating pool.

This post uses dictionary definitions of man and woman.

If a lesbian repeatedly stresses that she does not want to sleep with a woman because that woman is trans, then there is an argument that there might be an element of transphobia. Lesbians are attracted to women, and if the only thing wrong with the woman is that the woman is trans then it does look like it might be a bit transphobic.

If a lesbian repeatedly stresses that she does not want to sleep with a man because that man is trans, then that is not even vaguely transphobic, it is an expression of sexual orientation.

It's time to start using the terms male bodied and female bodied trans people as a stepping stone to getting to accurate language where a "trans woman" means a woman who happens to be trans, not a man playing at being a woman. Not least as the two most important things we need to know is their biological sex and whether they identify as trans. We don't need to know how some man perceives himself and wants to be perceived by others.

@SpindleWorl

I really, really dislike the use of the coy euphemisms that are being used. TMI FOLLOWS.

'Dating pool' - oh fuck off, as dear Magdalen would have said.

'Sleep with'. Er, no, we're talking about males wanting to put their penises into vaginas or female anuses or female mouths, as part of acts of penetrative sex.

Please let's not play this down.

When I think of a "dating pool" I think of the pool containing all of the people to whom you could in theory be attracted to because their sex is compatible with your sexual orientation. Thus a trans woman can never be in a lesbians dating pool, not least because a lesbian who sleeps with men is bisexual not a lesbian.

Obviously where you fish in your dating pool is down to your personal preferences, tastes and kinks - you might have a very small corner where you look for extremely attractive masculine men aged 30-35 who went to oxbridge, or you might be open anyone with at least some of their own teeth. But, by definition you'll always be lookin in the pool containing people of the sex(es) you are attracted to.

If a lesbian repeatedly stresses that she does not want to sleep with a woman because that woman is trans, then there is an argument that there might be an element of transphobia. Lesbians are attracted to women, and if the only thing wrong with the woman is that the woman is trans then it does look like it might be a bit transphobic.

I posted this last night. I'm female and straight. I can't imagine ever wanting to sleep with an MTF trans person, despite seeing them as unequivocally male (as I completely reject the idea that they are women). Does my lack of attraction to this group of males in and of itself make me transphobic?

This post uses dictionary definitions of man and woman.

If a lesbian repeatedly stresses that she does not want to sleep with a woman because that woman is trans, then there is an argument that there might be an element of transphobia. Lesbians are attracted to women, and if the only thing wrong with the woman is that the woman is trans then it does look like it might be a bit transphobic.

If a lesbian repeatedly stresses that she does not want to sleep with a man because that man is trans, then that is not even vaguely transphobic, it is an expression of sexual orientation.

I take the point, but I would like to stress that sexually rejecting anyone, for any reason, is perfectly acceptable. If a lesbian doesn't want to go out with a FtM trans person, they do not have to. It's perfectly reasonable to not want to go out with someone who hates their body, or the fact that they are female. Lesbian transwidows (who are possibly the most sidelined voice in a host of squashed down voices) should feel under no obligation whatsoever to stay with partners who require controlled language etc.

You can have enthusiastic consent and female autonomy, or you can have 'you might be transphobic if...' You can't have both.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

If a lesbian repeatedly stresses that she does not want to sleep with a woman because that woman is trans, then there is an argument that there might be an element of transphobia. Lesbians are attracted to women, and if the only thing wrong with the woman is that the woman is trans then it does look like it might be a bit transphobic.

I posted this last night. I'm female and straight. I can't imagine ever wanting to sleep with an MTF trans person, despite seeing them as unequivocally male (as I completely reject the idea that they are women). Does my lack of attraction to this group of males in and of itself make me transphobic?

Personally I would choose my words very carefully!

IMHO this would be a reasonable position. "I am only attracted to men. I cannot imagine being attracted to a man who presents in a feminine way, or who seeks access to women's single sex spaces, or who denies women their sex-based rights. I certainly couldn't be attracted to a man who honestly denied reality so much that he claimed to be a woman. But, saying all that, my dating pool is people with male bodies who are attracted to women and it is possible that I could meet a male-bodied person who identifies as trans and ticks all the boxes. Highly unlikely but not impossible. If I did they'd probably reject me for insisting that the PIV sex we were having is heterosexual sex and failing to validate their delusion that they're a lesbian!"

Just my opinion

Open letter 'nothing of the such'
So that's logic AND the English language they're failing in then.