BBC responds to backlash to article about lesbians being pressured into sex by some trans women

[FindTheTruth]

BBC spokesperson said: “The article looks at a complex subject from different perspectives and acknowledges it is difficult to assess the extent of the issue.

“It includes testimony from a range of different sources and provides appropriate context. It went through our rigorous editorial processes.

“It is important that journalism looks at issues - even where there are strongly held positions. The BBC is here to ensure debate and to make sure a wide a range of voices are heard.”

attitude.co.uk/article/bbc-responds-to-backlash-to-article-about-lesbians-being-pressured-into-sex-by-some-trans-women-1/26090/

Personally I would choose my words very carefully!

IMHO this would be a reasonable position. "I am only attracted to men. I cannot imagine being attracted to a man who presents in a feminine way, or who seeks access to women's single sex spaces, or who denies women their sex-based rights. I certainly couldn't be attracted to a man who honestly denied reality so much that he claimed to be a woman. But, saying all that, my dating pool is people with male bodies who are attracted to women and it is possible that I could meet a male-bodied person who identifies as trans and ticks all the boxes. Highly unlikely but not impossible. If I did they'd probably reject me for insisting that the PIV sex we were having is heterosexual sex and failing to validate their delusion that they're a lesbian!"

Just my opinion

But this is just more of the same what we did that, what if we said this? What if toilet cubicle doors were floor to ceiling and had a basin in them, what if the male rapist in a female prison was flanked by security, had a GRC, what if it was just post op men, what if, what if, what if.

Women can say no, you know. Unequivocally. With or without reasons. They do not have to choose their words carefully.

They can reject men sexually for all or any of the reasons connected to them subscribing to transgenderism.

Women's sexual proclivities are not subject to discriminatory judgement. We're not an exercise in equality.

They don't have to future proof their decisions against some hypothetical situation which might constitute a what if.

@FloralBunting

This post uses dictionary definitions of man and woman.

If a lesbian repeatedly stresses that she does not want to sleep with a woman because that woman is trans, then there is an argument that there might be an element of transphobia. Lesbians are attracted to women, and if the only thing wrong with the woman is that the woman is trans then it does look like it might be a bit transphobic.

If a lesbian repeatedly stresses that she does not want to sleep with a man because that man is trans, then that is not even vaguely transphobic, it is an expression of sexual orientation.

I take the point, but I would like to stress that sexually rejecting anyone, for any reason, is perfectly acceptable. If a lesbian doesn't want to go out with a FtM trans person, they do not have to. It's perfectly reasonable to not want to go out with someone who hates their body, or the fact that they are female. Lesbian transwidows (who are possibly the most sidelined voice in a host of squashed down voices) should feel under no obligation whatsoever to stay with partners who require controlled language etc.

You can have enthusiastic consent and female autonomy, or you can have 'you might be transphobic if...' You can't have both.

Thank you.

I would like to stress that I agree 100% that sexually rejecting anyone, for any reason OR NONE, is perfectly acceptable.

It is perfectly reasonable of a lesbian to assume that an FtM trans person will have beliefs, issues and/or physical traits which leave the lesbian cold.

I suppose my point is that it is all orientation (which is a definitive thing) or preference (which is much less clear cut).

Avoiding trans people (of the sex you fancy) is a preference, not an orientation. And as such I cannot help but leave open the tiny possibility that a trans person might have none of the undesirable attributes I might assume them to have.

Part of me thinks this is a pointless tangent - TW are upset with lesbians failing to validate them, not heterosexual women for failing to have normal straight sex.

But part of me thinks that my point is absolutely key. IMHO the wholesale and inevitable rejection of trans people by non trans people, ordinary men and women, is not because they think trans people are evil or second class citizens. TW are rejected because lesbians like women not men, and straight women tend to like men who accept reality and don't make a spectacle of themselves, not men who deny reality and expect you to validate their insane denial as they smear lipstick badly across their blatantly male face. The rejection of trans people is not simply because they're trans, it is because of the things that typically go along with it.

Actually, another thought experiment. You go on a blind date. You meet a man who is straight. Everything he says and does is perfect, and he looks great and shares your GC views. At the end of the date he says "obviously I have a male body and I my orientation is that I like straight sex with women... but I identify as non-binary - I just feel that my inner self transcends gender. Anyway, that's enough of that, just thought I'd tell you, I know I am a man, I have no interest in adopting feminine gender expression, let's never mention that I am non-binary again!"

I'd not a blame anyone for saying "FFS, what horseshit, I'm out". But equally I kinda think that this hypothetical man is absolutely perfect apart from an ultimately meaningless claim to be non-binary, so why would you automatically exclude this person other than transphobia?

I'd imagine that if you did reject this man many TRA would simultaneously claim that the man wasn;t really trans but you were transphobic anyway!

If a lesbian repeatedly stresses that she does not want to sleep with a woman because that woman is trans, then there is an argument that there might be an element of transphobia. Lesbians are attracted to women, and if the only thing wrong with the woman is that the woman is trans then it does look like it might be a bit transphobic.

Surely it's entirely possible, and legitimate, for a lesbian to be both homosexual and 'homogenderal' ? While others might be homosexual and 'heterogenderal' and prefer more butch women and/or transmen.

@Datun

Personally I would choose my words very carefully!

IMHO this would be a reasonable position. "I am only attracted to men. I cannot imagine being attracted to a man who presents in a feminine way, or who seeks access to women's single sex spaces, or who denies women their sex-based rights. I certainly couldn't be attracted to a man who honestly denied reality so much that he claimed to be a woman. But, saying all that, my dating pool is people with male bodies who are attracted to women and it is possible that I could meet a male-bodied person who identifies as trans and ticks all the boxes. Highly unlikely but not impossible. If I did they'd probably reject me for insisting that the PIV sex we were having is heterosexual sex and failing to validate their delusion that they're a lesbian!"

Just my opinion

But this is just more of the same what we did that, what if we said this? What if toilet cubicle doors were floor to ceiling and had a basin in them, what if the male rapist in a female prison was flanked by security, had a GRC, what if it was just post op men, what if, what if, what if.

Women can say no, you know. Unequivocally. With or without reasons. They do not have to choose their words carefully.

They can reject men sexually for all or any of the reasons connected to them subscribing to transgenderism.

Women's sexual proclivities are not subject to discriminatory judgement. We're not an exercise in equality.

They don't have to future proof their decisions against some hypothetical situation which might constitute a what if.

I agree pretty much.

I suppose, to really nail it down, I am trying to suggest that it is entirely unhelpful for women to say "I would never sleep with a trans person". It risks being perceived as bigotry if nothing else, including by the general public.

Lesbians should stick to the line "I don't sleep with men" and trust that the vast majority of the population understand that not sleeping with men means not sleeping with any adult human male, trans or not. "I don't sleep with men" is going to be called out as transphobic as well by TRAs, but an ordinary person is going to treat that accusation as idiotic.

@ErrolTheDragon

If a lesbian repeatedly stresses that she does not want to sleep with a woman because that woman is trans, then there is an argument that there might be an element of transphobia. Lesbians are attracted to women, and if the only thing wrong with the woman is that the woman is trans then it does look like it might be a bit transphobic.

Surely it's entirely possible, and legitimate, for a lesbian to be both homosexual and 'homogenderal' ? While others might be homosexual and 'heterogenderal' and prefer more butch women and/or transmen.

I'd imagine so, but I'm not sure that "homogenderal" and "heterogenderal" in this context does anything other than suggest that people have a sexual orientation and (or instead?) a gender orientation and preferences. IMHO this is rubbish. People have a sexual orientation and preferences only. Obviously a lesbian may have any preference she wishes in terms of feminine or masculine attributes, and a lesbian who likes more masculine women is - presumably - more likely to consider a female bodied trans person as a potential partner.

why would you automatically exclude this person other than transphobia?

Because they've just said something that indicates a whole load of tedium in store, perhaps. Much the same as if you had met someone, got on great then they showed you photos of a room stuffed to the gills with Thomas the tank engine books and toys.

If a lesbian is having to repeatedly stress that she does not want to sleep with a woman because that woman is trans, then there is an argument that there might be an element of transphobia

If a lesbian was repeatedly having to stress that she does not want to sleep with a man then there is an argument that there might be an element of sexual harassment and homophobia.

I'm not convinced that telling lesbians what they should and shouldn't say is very helpful either though. Runs the risk that if they get a word wrong then they're the 'aggressor' rather than the victim if their preferences are violated.

Maybe the best thing is that nobody should ever feel the need to explain or defend their own sexuality.

@Lovelyricepudding

If a lesbian is having to repeatedly stress that she does not want to sleep with a woman because that woman is trans, then there is an argument that there might be an element of transphobia

If a lesbian was repeatedly having to stress that she does not want to sleep with a man then there is an argument that there might be an element of sexual harassment and homophobia.

But that's not what I said - I said she was rejecting an adult human female - a woman - who is trans.

Obviously if a male bodied trans person claimed to be a woman and a lesbian then that other lesbian should tell that man to fuck off with his sexual harrasssment and homophobia.

@ErrolTheDragon

I'm not convinced that telling lesbians what they should and shouldn't say is very helpful either though. Runs the risk that if they get a word wrong then they're the 'aggressor' rather than the victim if their preferences are violated.

Maybe the best thing is that nobody should ever feel the need to explain or defend their own sexuality.

Again, that's fair. Though, to state the obvious, I am not telling lesbians what to say, I am giving my perspective of what is reasonable. IMHO lesbians should be making clear that TW are being rejected because they are men, not because they are trans. Meanwhile TM who are rejected are rejected because of the personal preferences of the lesbian in question, not because the lesbian automatically rules out dating women who are attracted to women but identify as trans.

Two statements -

(1) I find it almost impossible to think that I would ever date a trans person. There are many reasons for this, not least that trans women are men and I don't date men, and trans men (ie women who are trans) present as men and my preference is for women who present as women. But also because I disagree with almost every bit of the ideology that TRAs put forward and would never date someone if their political views were in direct opposition to mine.

(2) I would never date a trans person.

I can 100% see why a lesbian might say statement (2)... but in the interests of trying to keep ordinary people on board - people who know what a sexual orientation is, are pro-gay-rights and anti bigotry - I think statement (1) is better.

If a lesbian is repeatedly having to say that they don't want to sleep with a transwoman
...
Then the transwoman is clearly providing unwanted sexual harassment

@ErrolTheDragon

I'm not convinced that telling lesbians what they should and shouldn't say is very helpful either though. Runs the risk that if they get a word wrong then they're the 'aggressor' rather than the victim if their preferences are violated.

Maybe the best thing is that nobody should ever feel the need to explain or defend their own sexuality.

"Maybe the best thing is that nobody should ever feel the need to explain or defend their own sexuality."

Agreed... but at the moment it seems lesbians need to. Also, to be picky, lesbians do not need to reject trans people in order to defend their sexuality, they need to reject TW only. A trans man might be rejected by a lesbian for any number of reasons, but a trans man by definition cannot be a threat to a lesbian's sexuality.

@NoNotMeNoSiree

TRAs protesting a conference about violence against women and girls

The Filia conference addressing violence against women and girls worldwide was protested by TRAs. Many of the women contributing to the conference are survivors of rape and sexual abuse. They and their children were met with slogans including “suck my dick, cunt”

TRAs protesting young women raising awareness about drunks spiking
The Girls Night In boycott of nightclubs to protest the massive increase in spiking women’s drinks was criticised by TRAs and pressurised to change the name to ‘Durham Night In’ etc. Spiking is wrong whoever the target is, if TRAs see TWAW why could they not have assumed it meant them too and / or put out a statement ‘in solidarity of our ‘cis’ sisters’ or ‘Transwomen support this campaign on behalf of trans/ cis alike’? Instead of attacking and undermining?

TRAs now saying that lesbians are lying

The narrative that lesbians are NOT being pressurised, or not enough to care about, that the BBC made the article up etc. The ‘cotton ceiling’ workshop is documented. Stonewall have removed the word ‘homophobia’ from their campaigning and put out a weasel-worded statement about sex based sexuality choices being akin to racism etc. So who is believing and standing up for lesbians here?

Of course insults, discrimination, abuse and avoidance of trans people simply for being trans is transphobic.

But having a sexuality which is focussed on biological sex is not. For anyone with any sense, honesty or empathy.

But also because I disagree with almost every bit of the ideology that TRAs put forward and would never date someone if their political views were in direct opposition to mine.

Yes, yes, yes and this is such a key point. I would not date someone who voted for UKIP. This does not mean that I am questioning their right to exist or phobic of them. It does not mean I consider them inherently evil or psychopathic. It does mean that our political views are completely incompatible. I would also not date a straight man who was a TRA (I am straight).I don't think I'd date a man who stated his pronouns. Choosing not to date a trans person who has the body of someone you otherwise might date is not transphobic (well not necessarily, there may of course be some people who don't want to for that reason).

Agreed... but at the moment it seems lesbians need to.

Why? Do gay men have to justify their choices?

OK. Just shows the ridiculousness of having to contort language. 'Woman is trans' is often used to mean men. If you mean a woman then still having to repeatedly stress you do not want to sleep with them sounds like you are being harassed. As for not wanting to date someone who is a devotee of a specific belief system, I don't see an issue with that.

@bordersroaming

If a lesbian is repeatedly having to say that they don't want to sleep with a transwoman ... Then the transwoman is clearly providing unwanted sexual harassment

To be clear - it is OUTRAGEOUS that any man would attempt to sleep with a lesbian - by definition if you are male and they are lesbian then they're never going to be interested. A lesbian should not have to say no even once to any man (including TW), so long as that man knows that they are a lesbian.

Surely, by definition, an attempt to seduce a homosexual of the opposite sex to yourself is a type of conversion therapy and always wrong (or at least becomes wrong the second you become aware that your sex and their orientation do not match)?

But yeah, it's all about het men wanting straight sex that validates them as something that they're not, and they can;t get that from straight women.

Any reason for not wanting to sleep with someone is reasonable. It dies not need this much handwringing, laetitia

I think we're a bit at cross purposes, Laetitia, you seem to be defining 'sexuality' as 'sexual orientation' - it's actually a broader term. 'Sexual orientation' is, of course, the legally protected characteristic. But I don't believe anyone should have to defend other aspects of their sexuality either if someone won't take a no for an answer.

@Lovelyricepudding

OK. Just shows the ridiculousness of having to contort language. 'Woman is trans' is often used to mean men. If you mean a woman then still having to repeatedly stress you do not want to sleep with them sounds like you are being harassed. As for not wanting to date someone who is a devotee of a specific belief system, I don't see an issue with that.

Sorry if my language was not clear. Yes, I agree, one no is plenty!

And again, to be petty, I might argue that it is transphobic to assume that just because someone identifies as trans that they also believe in a dangerous, insane, homophobic, misogynistic TRA-approved agenda - maybe they are trans and GC?

And again, to be petty, I might argue that it is transphobic to assume that just because someone identifies as trans that they also believe in a dangerous, insane, homophobic, misogynistic TRA-approved agenda - maybe they are trans and GC?

It certainly would be, but I don't think I've come across anyone on this board doing that. And easily refutable - the trans people who would talk to the BBC reporter were clearly none of the things you've just described. So I'm not sure what your point is in the context of this thread?

maybe they are trans and GC?

How could you be critical of the whole concept of gender being some innate feeling/ characteristic but still want to 'live as the opposite sex' or 'feel like' you're the opposite sex? If you are a man who is GC and wants to wear a dress, crack on. Doesn't make you trans though does it? Genuine question - this statement has stumped me.

I'd not a blame anyone for saying "FFS, what horseshit, I'm out". But equally I kinda think that this hypothetical man is absolutely perfect apart from an ultimately meaningless claim to be non-binary, so why would you automatically exclude this person other than transphobia?

Because the meaningless claim to be non-binary is not meaningless and says a lot about how the person sees the world. They would see it in ways incompatible with mine. I don't think you can hold that view and really support female emancipation. Because many feminists (inc me) believe female emancipation will only be achieved when we deconstruct rigid conceptualisations of what it means to be a man or a woman. Gender ideology entrenches that. For me it would be the same as if someone said "I don't believe in a benefits system but it doesn't matter much as I can't be bothered to vote anyway".

@ErrolTheDragon

I think we're a bit at cross purposes, Laetitia, you seem to be defining 'sexuality' as 'sexual orientation' - it's actually a broader term. 'Sexual orientation' is, of course, the legally protected characteristic. But I don't believe anyone should have to defend other aspects of their sexuality either if someone won't take a no for an answer.

Funnily enough between posting my comment and reading your reply I did google "sexuality" for a definition. And it appears you are right sexual orientation is part of sexuality, not all of it.

You are right when you say "I don't believe anyone should have to defend other aspects of their sexuality either if someone won't take a no for an answer."

[Orientation part of sexuality] I suppose my point is that if you're chatting to someone at a party and they say "not interested, I'm a gay man and you're a woman" then that is a 100% definitive thing that it would be absolutely outrageous not to respect immediately and absolutely.

[Preference part of sexuality] But if they say "not interested, I prefer people who are wittier than you" then the door is open a touch. It would be inappropriate (and pointless probably) to follow them around for 5 hours getting increasingly drunk and trying to persuade them of your hilarious nature.... it would not be inappropriate to hope that you might find yourself chatting to them later on in the evening, and they came to realize that you are actually hilarious and not the dull bore that they thought on first impressions.

With orientation the door is firmly shit.

With preference the door is open a fraction. That the door is open a fraction allows you to have a bit of hope, but does not give you a right to push and try to force it.

There's no such thing as someone who is trans, or trans supportive and also gender critical. They are mutually exclusive. One directly undermines the other.

Transgender ideology relies on stereotypes, being gender critical wants to abolish them.