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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

BBC responds to backlash to article about lesbians being pressured into sex by some trans women

541 replies

FindTheTruth · 27/10/2021 20:59

BBC spokesperson said: “The article looks at a complex subject from different perspectives and acknowledges it is difficult to assess the extent of the issue.

“It includes testimony from a range of different sources and provides appropriate context. It went through our rigorous editorial processes.

“It is important that journalism looks at issues - even where there are strongly held positions. The BBC is here to ensure debate and to make sure a wide a range of voices are heard.”

attitude.co.uk/article/bbc-responds-to-backlash-to-article-about-lesbians-being-pressured-into-sex-by-some-trans-women-1/26090/

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Snugglepumpkin · 27/10/2021 23:51

I wrote to thank the BBC for finally producing some news that was relevant to biological women & showed their experiences of having transpeople invade what should be safe spaces without debate.

The more people who let them know it was a good thing to represent the viewpoints of biological women as well as transpeople, the better.

SpindleWorl · 27/10/2021 23:55

I made the point that I have been a BBC licence fee payers for decades.

I also made the point that anyone can sign an online open letter or petition, including not only people who do not and will probably not ever pay the licence fee, but people from outside the UK.

FindTheTruth · 27/10/2021 23:58

Dr Jane Clare Jones rips the letter to shreds (MUST READ)
twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1453360187574784004

OP posts:
FindTheTruth · 28/10/2021 00:03

Here's the whole thread by Dr Jane Clare Jones, ripping that letter to shreds
threadreaderapp.com/thread/1453338695709433856.html

OP posts:
Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 28/10/2021 00:09

Wow. Their open letter has the same level of 'rigour' as all trans promotion.

It asserts that:
"This study breaks the BBC’s own guidelines about using surveys as sources for claims in coverage, as it is self selected, with a small sample size and a clear bias held by those self selected to respond."

The actual BBC guidance say that "Other organisations often claim they have conducted a survey – or a poll – when what they actually have is a self-selecting questionnaire of some sort. The results may be interesting and newsworthy, but we should not necessarily accept claims about how representative they are at the face value of a press release; we should not report them in a way which leads our audience to believe they are more robust than they are. If they are of no statistical value and appear to have been promoted only to generate attention for a particular cause or publication, we should exercise real scepticism and consider not using them at all, especially when they are concerned with serious or controversial issues".

But in the actual article it says that the survey owners acknowledge that their results may not be representative of the wider lesbian community. So there is no claim to the results being more robust than they really are. You'd have to be a fool to think that reporting on a number of sexual assaults and a larger number of worrying incidents of coercion was just about generating attention (and if you took that stance then many articles about trans issues should also not have been published). There is no breach of the BBCs guidelines and the letter does not even both to outline how they think it has been breached.

The letter says that "Additionally, the article itself acknowledges that outside of this small sample size self selected study there is basically no evidence for the claim that this is happening in any sort of numbers that would justify generalising this as a widespread experience.". But again the article does not do that. There is a quote where Ms Jackson says it has happening to a sizeable minority ". That is not generalising this as a widespread experience and clearly only rape apologists would see the numbers which were shared even in this self-selecting group as numbers which do not justify discussing the issue.

They say that "You cite a more than 50% figure from Get the L Out’s survey result, with the implication being that most cis lesbians will have experienced coersion into sex by a trans woman, in the same article as the below quote." There is no such implication. People who bother to read the article will not jump to such silly conclusions.

Letter writers evidence no understanding of UK law "The article itself routinely implies that transgender women are not women, uncritically quoting people who call transgender women men without at any point clarifying that this is ignoring their legal status as women in the UK." "Most of the people that the articles cites do not talk about not wanting to sleep with transgender women with penises, they talk about not wanting to sleep with people they see as men, or see as having male genitals. This should make it very clear what view those interviewed have on the legal status of the gender of transgender women". As well as this clear error, there it a clear attempt to control how others see trans gender women. In other areas of law, this kind of pressure would be seen as coercive and controlling.

"Again, this makes it clear that the person interviewed inherently feels that transgender women are not and can never be women. That is not someone who should be used as an unbiased source on the topic of transgender women’s existence." This part of the letter suggests that someone who believes TWAW is unbiased whereas someone who believes TWATW is biased. That is an unsubstantiable statement and a matter of opinion rather than bias. When an issue is one of opinion rather than fact, the question of bias is not clear cut. This presupposes the outcome of a debate which the trans lobby will not allow. As ever there is a confusion between a right to exist and a right to be seen as a woman rather than a transwoman. This argument is one of those which could be turned round on the translobby. Are they questioning women's right to exist when they refuse to understand the GC position?

"This again reinforces the idea that “true lesbians” don’t sleep with transgender women, a fact which is not accurate". Who gets to define accurate? Has there been any representative poll of lesbians to back up this claim or is this another fact that we are supposed to accept without debate just because they say it?

"The article also cites LGB Alliance. This group has registered charity status in the UK, but appears to be breaking the charity commission’s rules for behaviour and conduct of a UK charity⁵. A UK charity can campaign for the rights of a single group, but cannot exist solely or predominantly to campaign against the rights of a minority group⁶." And yet Stonewall are not entirely campaigning for trans rights and no longer recognise homosexuality as same-sex attraction. They are actively campaigning against the rights of women.

"The group does has not shown any evidence of campaigning for LGB (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual) issues such as halting LGB conversion therapy, addressing LGB hate crimes or tackling the high level of homelessness in the LGB community." The issues raised in this article are evidence of a new version of conversion therapy which some trans lobbies are promoting. In standing up to this hate speech, LGB alliance are trying to protect people from conversion therapy.

It's ridiculous to be cross that Hayton's view was represented when it is clear that in many trans lobby publications there is no attempt to present a balanced view. If there is a call for opposing view to be represented then the trans lobby groups need to find a way to stop the abuse and hate which is directed at anyone who disagrees with them.

The complaint of ", deliberately misgendered those with transgender pride flags" is as laughable as ever given the misgendering of lesbians (cis-lesbians) in this article.

"Additionally, this article completely overlooks the massive rates of violence faced by transgender people¹², The evidence for this is weak and it is not helpful to cite this in isolation from the violence which women experience.

"Those in the UK who campaign against Self-ID for transgender people use the argument that it will lead to an increase in sexual assaults, despite nothing of the such happening in any other country where Self-ID had been implemented." A ridiculous statement as if we believe TWAW then we have no words which would allow us to ascertain if there is an increase in sexual assaults

Overall a very poor letter indeed. A clear attempt to shut down opposing views. No empathy for the women who have been assaulted. No taking responsibility for the discourses which feed into this. No ability to understand that no-one is suggesting that all trans people are a risk like this, or even a majority are. The article is focusing on the consequences of the narrative which says that lesbians should be shamed for not fancying trans women. It does not say all trans women do that. It does not say it happens to all or most lesbians. It says that we need to think more about how this has come about so that it stops happening to people who it has or could happen to. It's another attempt to bully and silence and is shameful.

BettyFilous · 28/10/2021 00:11

Has JCJ protected her tweets today to get a break from TRA? They are only showing as ‘protected’ whereas I can usually read them (non-Twitter user).

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 28/10/2021 00:12

[quote FindTheTruth]Here's the whole thread by Dr Jane Clare Jones, ripping that letter to shreds
threadreaderapp.com/thread/1453338695709433856.html[/quote]
Love it. Good to have someone so clearly seeing through all the bullshit.

ErrolTheDragon · 28/10/2021 00:14

I wonder if Ben Bradshaw had actually read the specific piece that's being complained about? Is anyone in his constituency (Exeter?)

FindTheTruth · 28/10/2021 00:14

@BettyFilous

Has JCJ protected her tweets today to get a break from TRA? They are only showing as ‘protected’ whereas I can usually read them (non-Twitter user).
She's been on fire today. Furious and Glorious tweets all day. Not sure how it works when you're not logged in but the threadreader link for the letter rebuttal should be ok for you I think? threadreaderapp.com/thread/1453338695709433856.html
OP posts:
PickAChew · 28/10/2021 00:14

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Blackberrycream · 28/10/2021 00:18

How on earth would anyone think that an article with women talking about their own experiences of coercive sex, an article that had gone through all the checks that published articles have to go through, merits government intervention?
The Attitude article displays such entitlement. They genuinely believe that they have absolute control of the narrative and that the media reporting on any other viewpoints is a genuine grievance. It’s hard to know where to start picking that one apart but it is so worrying that some are supportive of this mindset.

Abitofalark · 28/10/2021 00:20

"The BBC is here to ensure debate and to make sure a wide a range of voices are heard."

Aaaagh....since when, BBC? That's not what you've been doing these last several years when adopting activists' and lobby group's language about the fundamentals of human life - 'assigned at birth', 'people who are pregnant'; recommending and giving charity donations to questionable organisations; censuring your own Woman's Hour presenter until she left or dancing delicately around lobby group's demands for special protection from 'debate' during interviews. Women's voices have largely not been heard on the BBC on the subject of protecting their interests and rights.

What's with this 'here to ensure debate'? A new self-appointed mission? I thought the BBC's purpose was to inform, educate and entertain. Women's voices protecting women's rights and freedoms to think and to speak on their own behalf isn't a mere matter of debate. That's trivialising what is at stake.

boomboomshakalakalakaboom · 28/10/2021 00:21

Ahh Dr Jones is a breath of fresh air!

Whatsnewpussyhat · 28/10/2021 00:25

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feminism/4386594-BBC-article-has-been-reported-to-police-as-a-Hate-Crime

I'm sure this thread will end up here in the naughty corner but this is the latest tactic.

Enough4me · 28/10/2021 00:27

Following the letter, it's OK for lesbians to say to a TW you are not my type as I like brunettes, but not you are not my type as you possess a penis, and I don't go for beards, thick hairy backs, square male jaws, other male features are all offensive terms.

NoNotMeNoSiree · 28/10/2021 00:41

@Whatstheweatherlike

Also nice to see #IStandWithLesbians is trending on Twitter.
So's CisWithTheT which is the original hashtag that IStandWithLesbians was set up in protest to. 29k tweets a few hours ago as opposed to about 10k for the latter.
CharlieParley · 28/10/2021 00:54

That letter claims that all male members of the trans community who identify as women are women under UK law (lie) and then goes on to say that lesbians must not say that a male members of the trans community is male because that is "an act of transphobia, because in the UK she is recognised as a woman" (lie)

That's not just another lie, that also completely denies the right a lesbian has under UK law to protection of her sexuality as same-sex attracted.

The letter then goes on to complain that the lesbian interviewed, who states she is also not attracted to post-op males (because they are male) is not someone who should be used as an unbiased source on the topic of transgender women's existence.

This is so demented I'm struggling to believe they actually published this.

The topic of the article was:

lesbians being pressured into accepting male transgender people as sexual partners by members of the trans community

And not

the existence of male transgender people

How they put this BS out is beyond me.

After all the denials, trying to discredit the groups who contributed and calling into question the testimonials from survivors as transphobic hate (i.e.lies), on page 10 of just over 13 pages, they finally admit that yes, some lesbians will undoubtedly have been coerced by some male members of the trans community. But that shouldn't be used to cast the whole community in a bad light (which the BBC article goes out of its way to make clear it does not).

But actually, that coercion is not happening enough to be worthy of BBC coverage anyway, who really - if they need to mention violence and trans in the same article - ought to focus on violence against trans people (specifically against males by other males), not violence committed by them.

Lots of nonsense follows, moving further and further away from the topic of the BBC article.

On Monday, the women's trade unionist leaders in Scotland voted down a motion seeking to keep services for vulnerable women and child survivors of male violence female-only. And like I did then, I wonder how these people will walk back from this when it's all over.

They've clearly abdicated their critical thinking faculties to someone else, because I would never ever put my name to such a down vote or such an incoherent, contradictory, illogical and in parts stupid letter. But seemingly clever and well educated people are doing so.

Is there a way back for them that allows them to save face?

Alektopteryx · 28/10/2021 01:13

#IStandWithLesbians didn't start till 8pm so it's collected 15.7k posts since then. The CIST one has been going slowly all day.

ItsRainingProstateOwners · 28/10/2021 01:28

Isn’t Attitude predominantly for gay men? Or has it gone the Diva route and embraced the T to keep going?

EdgeOfTheSky · 28/10/2021 01:50

In the last couple of weeks we have seen:
TRAs protesting a conference about violence against women and girls.
TRAs protesting young women raising awareness about drunks spiking.
TRAs now saying that lesbians are lying
TRAs getting a Bingo game , sold to raise funds for Oxfam, banned because it has the wrong kind of women in it.

If Transwomen want to sit at the table , I would like to see them put in a shift in the kitchen. Doing the feminist heavy lifting. Sticking up for raped, abused, murdered women. Standing in solidarity with women’s causes.

NoNotMeNoSiree · 28/10/2021 02:36

@EdgeOfTheSky

In the last couple of weeks we have seen: TRAs protesting a conference about violence against women and girls. TRAs protesting young women raising awareness about drunks spiking. TRAs now saying that lesbians are lying TRAs getting a Bingo game , sold to raise funds for Oxfam, banned because it has the wrong kind of women in it.

If Transwomen want to sit at the table , I would like to see them put in a shift in the kitchen. Doing the feminist heavy lifting. Sticking up for raped, abused, murdered women. Standing in solidarity with women’s causes.

Not sure what the first two are in relation to? Nobody's said that lesbians are lying? You're entitled to be attracted to who you're attracted to. Just if you be like repeatedly stressing not sleeping with you because you're trans, that's different. As that shows a prejudice.
PanicPrevention · 28/10/2021 03:06

"If Transwomen want to sit at the table , I would like to see them put in a shift in the kitchen."
Exactly this. bravo.
I was asked if I 'screamed rape' everytime I encounter a man in public or some such nonsense, on a thread about not wanting people with penises about me when I'm vulnerable.
Ive never 'screamed rape', even when I was raped a year ago by a man I know; I told 3 people. I didnt scream. The language used is so telling.
The first point is about the Filia womens conference, where women from around the world join in solidarity against violence against women and girls and the patriarchal structures that are ruining the earth and women's bodies and lives.
We do this to build networks, to support each other, to learn and grow a movement that can free our sisters.
For some reason that I've still not worked out, tras decided this was the perfect place to hold a 2 day protest incuding signs threatening sexual violence that survivors and little girls would see.

PanicPrevention · 28/10/2021 03:12

supported by amnesty international no less. shame on them.
There are threads here about it if you actually give a shit to learn, or maybe you prefer to call lesbians prejudice?
If men would take no for a bloody answer rather than the beginning of a negotiation none of us would have to 'repeatedly stress' anything.
Are we allowed to have that as a reason so long as we never mention thats the reason?
Sexual orientation is not prejudice.
ffs

AMostExcellentStick · 28/10/2021 03:18

Well that BBC response was more robust than I expected. I wonder if it was written prior to the article being published!

The open letter is so utterly batshit, you could even read it believing TWAW and still see it’s batshit. “trans women are legally women” - no, a small number of them are. “Oh this probably does happen but it’s a tiny number so we shouldn’t talk about it” - well there’s not an epidemic of police murdering women, where’s the open letter to complain that we should stop talking about Sarah Everard?

I must say, I fully expected a few people I know to publicly complain about the article on social media, but there’s been absolute silence. It does feel like maybe there’s a slight shift in public opinion coming in.

Lammysaurus · 28/10/2021 03:35

NoNotMeNoSiree: Just if you be like repeatedly stressing not sleeping with you because you're trans, that's different. As that shows a prejudice.

Where specifically in the BBC article is there reference to anyone "repeatedly stressing not sleeping with you because you're trans"? This is the same line Ash Sarkar tried to pull, but she's entirely made it up as far as I can see. She was going on about people telling her every five minutes they wouldn't have sex with a "woman of colour" and then today it was "but if all you do is talk about who you find disgusting, who you’d never sleep with because of their minority status, then maybe that’s a bit bigoted!"

These aren't things that were said in the BBC article. It in fact stressed that the women were very polite and considerate and felt they couldn't say much of anything. This claiming that something was said that was not said and then harrassing the BBC, the journalist, and the interviewees is at absolute best irresponsible and misleading projection and also uncomfortably close to lying, bullying, and intimidation.

So, where exactly is the "prejudice"?

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