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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

BBC responds to backlash to article about lesbians being pressured into sex by some trans women

541 replies

FindTheTruth · 27/10/2021 20:59

BBC spokesperson said: “The article looks at a complex subject from different perspectives and acknowledges it is difficult to assess the extent of the issue.

“It includes testimony from a range of different sources and provides appropriate context. It went through our rigorous editorial processes.

“It is important that journalism looks at issues - even where there are strongly held positions. The BBC is here to ensure debate and to make sure a wide a range of voices are heard.”

attitude.co.uk/article/bbc-responds-to-backlash-to-article-about-lesbians-being-pressured-into-sex-by-some-trans-women-1/26090/

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23
BloodinGutters · 03/11/2021 15:06

@MargaritaPie

"But like some men are [sex predators]"

Some Gender Criticals are too. Ms Lily Cade for instance.

Is Lilly Cade gender critical? She’s a porn actress. The two don’t seem likely to go together.

Gender critical women and women. Women commit less than 2% of all sex crimes.

Men (and tw) commit 98% of sex crimes.

334bu · 03/11/2021 15:09

Some Gender Criticals are too. Ms Lily Cade for instance

As a sex worker producing lesbian porn Ms Lily Cade objected to male people having penetrative sex with her. Not sure of her gender critical views other than her belief that no woman has a penis? It is also clear that she really doesn't like male people who identify as women and has said some awful stuff. However, Margarita , as a supporter of sex workers , do you not believe that this woman had the right to choose the sex acts in which she was willing to participate?

334bu · 03/11/2021 15:12

Almost certainly less than 100%
Absolutely Laetitia but unfortunately not 0%

Datun · 03/11/2021 15:13

It’s the double whammy of lesbians who are victims of tw speaking up brings. Not only does it now make a subset of men look bad. But it makes them look like men, also.

Well yes. Everyone knows about instructions, articles and websites for incels and pick up artists. It's a very male thing.

And now the 'cotton ceiling'. More of the same shit.

Despite how gross it is, almost everyone reading it will accept the premise, without question. Because same old, same old.

The hugely disproportionate desperation to shut it down might be news to some, though.

Doubletoilandtrouble · 03/11/2021 15:15

I have started two new threads Smile.

  1. Has research on how sex buyers seem to be more likely to commit rape and sexual violence. Did we have anyone here in favour of prostitution?

  2. The other has a compilation of the negative effects of porn. I think that probably plays a large role in Lilly Cade’s seemingly poor mental health (I assume that anyone writing what she did is unwell).

Maybe the people keen to discuss Lilly could pop over to one of those threads?

I am quite interested in discussing BBCs response to the critic on their impartial article. I think they did the right thing. And, anecdotally, the critique of their article has made many more people read it. And think wtf. Why are rape victims being silenced.

Helleofabore · 03/11/2021 15:16

@MargaritaPie

"But like some men are [sex predators]"

Some Gender Criticals are too. Ms Lily Cade for instance.

Nice deflection there.

Males! Males are responsible for 98% of sex offences the UK. That does not mean that female cannot be sex offenders.

Really it is not that hard.

However, your continuing along this tack shows absolutely what your intention here is. Denying rape victims a voice because you have deemed one person mentioned in the article (and who is not a source of anything except for the way the name came into being) as being a predator.

And yes, I am quite sure there are many people who believe that sex is immutable are predators. Despite what YOU think, it is the prevailing understanding of scientific fact. Most of those have no idea that they could be ‘Gender Criticals’ as you so nicely put it.

It is time to own up to your own behaviour here. It isn’t righteous at all.

MargaritaPie · 03/11/2021 15:31

"The other has a compilation of the negative effects of porn. I think that probably plays a large role in Lilly Cade’s seemingly poor mental health"

"probably" is a bit speculative there.

There are a huge number- tonnes- of professional and amateur porn actors and actresses. They all don't write blogs calling for the genocide of a vulnerable minority group of people.

MargaritaPie · 03/11/2021 15:32

Plus I've also witnessed some extreme transphobia from people who don't appear to be porn or former-porn actors/actresses.

Helleofabore · 03/11/2021 15:35

Plus I've also witnessed some extreme transphobia from people who don't appear to be porn or former-porn actors/actresses.

What has that got to do with this article and the BBC response to it?

No denies there is some horrific transphobia displayed. In fact, some supposed trans allies have been forgiven for some bloody awful past comment.

Still does make your intention to discredit the article any more righteous.

aliasundercover · 03/11/2021 15:41

I've also witnessed some extreme transphobia from people who don't appear to be porn or former-porn actors/actresses

As your idea of 'extreme transphobia' is using the correct pronoun for somebody I'll need specific examples.

BloodinGutters · 03/11/2021 15:42

@MargaritaPie

"The other has a compilation of the negative effects of porn. I think that probably plays a large role in Lilly Cade’s seemingly poor mental health"

"probably" is a bit speculative there.

There are a huge number- tonnes- of professional and amateur porn actors and actresses. They all don't write blogs calling for the genocide of a vulnerable minority group of people.

That’s a funny way to write most powerful and privileged group belonging to the sex class of males.
334bu · 03/11/2021 15:50

Plus I've also witnessed some extreme transphobia from people who don't appear to be porn or former-porn actors/actresses.

Yes and often from people, almost always male, who now declare themselves to be trans allies. Gives them a nice excuse to malign women now.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 03/11/2021 15:51

@MargaritaPie

Plus I've also witnessed some extreme transphobia from people who don't appear to be porn or former-porn actors/actresses.
Like Damien Barr? Yes, that was vile.
Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 03/11/2021 16:50

Some Gender Criticals are too. Ms Lily Cade for instance.

I don't know if Lily Cade is 'a Gender Critical'. She is someone who refuses to have sex with male bodied people.

What she said in that blog post though is absolutely disgusting and vile. There is no defending it at all, and there have been a couple of comments on this thread that have skated pretty close to defending it (she is sick of the bullshit, it was taken out of context she is talking about personas). No. That is some funked up shit she has published.

However, I'm not sure is going to be the 'major journalistic scandal' that Owen Jones is currently rabidly claiming on Twitter - you can almost hear the frothing! The question remains about whether lesbians should be allowed to discuss being pressured into sex by some transwomen and whether or not its transphobic for a lesbian to exclude transwomen from her dating pool. Owen Jones and the rest of them still will never answer that simple question, despite the rest of the bullshit.

MissingLesbianSpaces · 03/11/2021 16:51

Margarite, You said you've witnessed extreme transphobia ... While displaying extreme lesbophobia. I SEE YOU.

Doubletoilandtrouble · 03/11/2021 17:38

I hope I am not considered to have defended Cade?

I have said that I think she has mental health problems based on what she has written and that she needs help.

I have also said that I hope she is dealt with in accordance of the laws of the relevant country.

I further think she is damaged by the porn industry. I would like both porn and prostitution made illegal.

dolorsit · 03/11/2021 17:44

Don't worry about it- it's just mpie clown dancing again.

Helleofabore · 03/11/2021 17:56

I don't believe anyone defended Lily Cade, but they have defended her right to speak out if she was raped or sexually assaulted by anyone and be believed.

I believe some posters are resorting to their usual tactics which are really quite bizarre normally, but very obnoxious in this instance.

secular111 · 03/11/2021 18:41

I've been a bit late to the Lily Cade discussions.

Looking around Twitter, the TRA's are seemingly absolutely aghast that Cade was interviewed, and have determined that the entire BBC article is obviously tainted and the lesbians were lying/it's all a conspiracy/how could they platform her?

Yet looking at the article, it is obvious that Cade was interviewed with regard to how the term 'cotton ceiling' came about. The origin of the term is supposed to have been by a trans porn actress going by the name of Drew DeVeaux in 2012. The journalist couldn't get in contact with DeVeaux, so following normal journalistic actions, found someone who had worked with them. And that was Lily Cade.

The term is first thought to have been used in 2012 by a trans porn actress going by the name of Drew DeVeaux. She no longer works in the industry and I have not been able to contact her. However, I spoke to a former porn performer and director who believes she inspired DeVeaux to use it.

Lily Cade, who worked in the industry for 10 years, went by the label "Porn Valley's Gold Star Lesbian" because she only ever had sex with other women.

Lily was asked to do a scene with DeVeaux in Toronto and initially agreed after looking at photos of her. But she backed out in advance after discovering online that she was a trans woman.

"My sex drive was oriented towards women," said Lily. "I couldn't see past the fact that what I was interacting with was male genitalia altered by surgery and not the reproductive organ of a female ape, and I just couldn't get past that."

Feeling guilty, Lily sent DeVeaux an email in which she apologised for being "the worst girl in the whole history of the world".

"I felt really bad about the way that I felt about this, but I did feel that way. I made the choice to say something about it and to back out," she said.

Lily said she was criticised on Twitter at the time, but only among "very fringe queer porno people". However, the concept of the cotton ceiling came to wider attention when it was used in the title of a workshop by Planned Parenthood Toronto.

The title of the workshop was: "Overcoming the Cotton Ceiling: Breaking Down Sexual Barriers for Queer Trans Women", and the description explained how participants would "work together to identify barriers, strategize ways to overcome them, and build community".

It was led by a trans writer and artist who later went to work for Stonewall (the organisation has asked the BBC not to name her because of safeguarding concerns).

"I thought it was kind of gross," said Lily. "The language is gross because you are evoking the metaphor of the glass ceiling, which is about women being oppressed. So saying that if someone doesn't want to have sex with you that person is oppressing you."

So the section of the article concerns the term 'cotton ceiling'. The journalist finds someone who might have been responsible in part, in its first use. Having done so, the journalist writes about the first course believed to have featured it; Planned Parenthood Toronto's Overcoming the Cotton Ceiling: Breaking Down Sexual Barriers for Queer Trans Women, presented by an individual who went on to work for Stonewall.

Although Cade has apparently called for a genocide (definition: the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group so perhaps the word 'genocide' isn't being quite understood) it isn't clear why TRA's reckon her inclusion in the context it was provided invalidates the entire piece. Other than perhaps it is clutching? A desperate attempt to try to invalidate an article which has drawn attention to issues they prefer not discussed? Certainly the origin of the 'cotton ceiling' term was required in the article, as homophobic transgender people use it, and the 'boxer ceiling' term to describe how they are affronted by same-sex attracted people (i.e. homosexuals) not being willing to have sex with them.

For some reason though, the TRA's don't appear to be too worried (i.e. not at all worried) about the somewhat hefty number of death threats against women made over the years, likely now running into hundred-of-thousands.

BBC responds to backlash to article about lesbians being pressured into sex by some trans women
MargaritaPie · 03/11/2021 18:52

"What has that got to do with this article and the BBC response to it?"

Some on here seem to think being a lesbian porn star is to blame for Lily Cade's little Gender Critical diatribe.

We all have our own opinions, and I think her being a transphobe (am I allowed to use that word here? I know you find the 4-letter T word offensive) is nothing to do with the fact she's a porn actress and is irrelevant to her GC views. I think she's just a transphobe who happens to also be a porn actress by chance.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 03/11/2021 18:55

@MargaritaPie

"What has that got to do with this article and the BBC response to it?"

Some on here seem to think being a lesbian porn star is to blame for Lily Cade's little Gender Critical diatribe.

We all have our own opinions, and I think her being a transphobe (am I allowed to use that word here? I know you find the 4-letter T word offensive) is nothing to do with the fact she's a porn actress and is irrelevant to her GC views. I think she's just a transphobe who happens to also be a porn actress by chance.

I believe that was me, after you said:

It reminds me of the sort of extreme thing a disturbed incel would write before going off and committing something bad.

I felt it was odd to say such a thing without thinking about what industry LC worked in.

MargaritaPie · 03/11/2021 19:00

Her website appears to be down. I wonder if it got banned by the host or if she took it down herself?

I'm not going to link it because it contains very violent hate speech as well as pornographic images.

Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 03/11/2021 19:12

@MargaritaPie

Her website appears to be down. I wonder if it got banned by the host or if she took it down herself?

I'm not going to link it because it contains very violent hate speech as well as pornographic images.

Yes please don't link it, it is horrible.

PPs are right though. If you read the article carefully (lol, as if the Twitterati are going to do that!), then she is only featured as someone who can give some context to the 'cotton ceiling' thing, and was chosen because the transwoman Drew Deveaux couldn't be contacted. So instead the journalist spoke to someone (Cade) who worked alongside Drew to give an insight as to why Drew coined that term, ie. That there are lesbians who refuse to have sex with transwomen. It then moves on to the cotton ceiling workshops, and specifically doesn't name the person who ran that workshop, because Stonewall asked them not to.

So the part about Cade is fairly neutral really and Cade was only asked because Deveaux couldn't be contacted.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 03/11/2021 19:16

Every time I see someone refer to another person as a transphobe, I think of images like this. One of those is the social media of the head of TENI in Ireland, I believe.

BBC responds to backlash to article about lesbians being pressured into sex by some trans women
BBC responds to backlash to article about lesbians being pressured into sex by some trans women
littlbrowndog · 03/11/2021 19:21

I saw that purgatory

That person. You really want to welcome them into women’s spaces

Get your teeth kicked out. Nice

Is teni a charity with funding ?

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