BBC article about cotton ceiling

[GingerAndTheBiscuits]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385 including Angela Wild, Rose of Dawn and Debbie Hayton. There’s no way this would have been published even just a few months ago 🤯

@Datun

I think this is a really important point. Are stonewall saying that a person's sexual preference can be created by societal pressure?

They are. Exactly that. And by the same token that it can also be unlearned.

So much for Born This Way.

I’ve known women in abuse survivor groups who have claimed that the abuse they suffered ‘turned them lesbian’.

Likelihood is they always would have been bi & trauma changed how they perceive that. However that’s not my place to define their sexuality for them.

Thing is, so the fuck what if the experience of being abused by men, repeatedly as well as the misogyny and ‘lower level’ sexual harassment put them off feeling attracted to men. It matters not a fuck why their sexuality is what it is, it’s theirs and they don’t have to reflect and alter regardless. No it 100% ok, no matter the reason behind the no, any and all reasons are valid.

@VladmirsPoutine

I've just glanced through other social media platforms and it seems this article has caused all manner of outrage. Most trans people aren't out here trying to rape women.

Most men aren't out and about trying to rape women. Does that mean we shouldn't talk about men raping women? Or the societal structures (failure of justice system etc.) and attitudes (sexist banter etc.) that contribute toward rape being an ongoing threat to women?

but Planned Parenthood Toronto stood by its decision to hold the workshop

In a statement sent to the BBC, executive director Sarah Hobbs said the workshop "was never intended to advocate or promote overcoming any individual woman's objections to sexual activity". Instead, she said the workshop explored "the ways in which ideologies of transphobia and transmisogyny impact sexual desire

was never intended to advocate or promote overcoming any individual woman's objections to sexual activity

How completely fucking dishonest. Total spin.

This is exactly what it's about. It's about guilt tripping women into letting anyone access their bodies and if they dare assert themselves, social ostracising and demonising them.

I feel so sorry for lesbians.

I've emailed to thank them for publishing it, and a bit about why I thought it was an important perspective to cover. Contact details are under the article. They will be getting a lot if complaints and I think it's worth giving them positive reinforcement.

Jaw-dropping. I am simply astounded to see this covered by the BBC and so well.

What a sea change there must have been behind the scenes for this article to be published.

The more sunlight the better.

The person that ran those workshops - who Stonewall asked the BBC not to name - does googling that person’s name bring up any articles that might call into question their suitability for their role? Just wondering whether there’s something else behind the decision not to name

Think the tide is finally turning on the whole madness. Also about time that trans people rather than a few loud mouthpieces get a say. Stonewall and other activists actually harm them and often shout over them.

There's a box at the bottom of the article where you can send a comment. You can tick the anon box, or use a psyeudom.

Alternatively you can send feedback here*

www.bbc.co.uk/contact/comments-feedback/#/Your%20comment

*this shouldn't be necessary, they're just finally doing what we pay them to do, but I imagine they will receive a lot of complaints

Having thought about this a bit more, I wouldn't date a trans man (I'm a hetero woman).

@GingerAndTheBiscuits

The person that ran those workshops - who Stonewall asked the BBC not to name - does googling that person’s name bring up any articles that might call into question their suitability for their role? Just wondering whether there’s something else behind the decision not to name

The person is named in this testimony by a lesbian

Well done the BBC. This has been going on for years. More sunlight guys

@GingerAndTheBiscuits

The person that ran those workshops - who Stonewall asked the BBC not to name - does googling that person’s name bring up any articles that might call into question their suitability for their role? Just wondering whether there’s something else behind the decision not to name

I'm going for best not to name, in line with the BBC. It would be a very easy way to have this thread and all of its useful sources deleted.

I’m seeing people online say this article is transphobic. Can anyone explain to me what exactly is transphobic about it? The headline says “SOME trans women are pressuring lesbians into sex”. It’s quite clear this is not a generalisation about trans women in general. Is women talking about being sexually assaulted and coerced into sex transphobic now?

One of my many difficulties with the class of [X] argument around preferences that manifest themselves in the experience of desire is that there was no nuance or exploration of context. Most (?) people don't discover that they no longer desire their partner when they acquire a disability as they age.

Yes, there's never any discussion of intimacy, or of the way sexual attraction can grow and develop, or fade away, over time. Is it because of Tinder or something? They seem to think that you see someone once, you swipe yes or no, and that's it. It's such bizarrely shallow analysis; I couldn't believe that Oxford philosopher person wrote a whole book on desire that seemed to be based on this superficial and inaccurate model.

And I suppose if your mental model of desire and attraction is based on Tinder then it makes some kind of sense to think it's a matter of social justice. Some people and some groups of people get a lot more right swipes than others, that makes "unfairness" legible and measurable in numbers. (Though even under that model there is of course no moral imperative for women to modify their preferences.)

@Manderleyagain you got in there while I was busy typing the same thing

@VladmirsPoutine

Having thought about this a bit more, I wouldn't date a trans man (I'm a hetero woman).

What, not if even if they ticked every single preferential box you have? From hair colour to your niche interest in lesser spotted warblers?

If the answer is no, that will be because you discriminate against women based on your sexual orientation.

Wow amazing article!
Thanks for posting this - it’s nowhere to be seen on the general BBC site

Went on Twitter to see what the Novara thing was about - caught lots of outraged lefty men decrying the BBC for "fake news" at the same time. Fake news, ffs! With whom do we associate that meaningless phrase? They just refuse to believe what is in front of them. All those women speaking up and using their real names and they still won't take them seriously.

Meanwhile another dodgy statement is all the engaging Stonewall are prepared to do. Ignoring legitimate questions, with the usual trans commenters also not being prepared to stand up to scrutiny, is getting them nowhere. I somewhat sympathise individuals may feel under attack and as if they're being set up. They want to control the narrative and can't do so with their words in someone else's hands. But if they can't explain themselves that only highlights how vast the problem is.

@VladmirsPoutine

Having thought about this a bit more, I wouldn't date a trans man (I'm a hetero woman).

I wouldn’t either.

I’m heterosexual, I date males. God knows why.

@Igmum

Well done the BBC. This has been going on for years. More sunlight guys

It really has. The cotton ceiling has been the subject of quite a few threads here.

And people have been deleted for saying pretty much everything that's in that article.

@GingerAndTheBiscuits

The person that ran those workshops - who Stonewall asked the BBC not to name - does googling that person’s name bring up any articles that might call into question their suitability for their role? Just wondering whether there’s something else behind the decision not to name

I don't know why they're being so coy. Unless of course they think they have something to hide?

It's all in the public domain

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lottery-thousands-pay-for-former-trans-stripper-to-sway-public-opinion-6lw9xbwgr

Can anyone explain to me what exactly is transphobic about it?

According to the dogma, lesbians are transphobic, same-sex orientation is transphobic, disagreeing with the dogma is transphobic, everything is transphobic. thankfully as @BudrosBudrosGalli points out, it's not all transwomen and it's good trans allies are being heard too. the dogma is both lebophobic and transphobic if you think about it. Transwomen with gender dysphoria who have gone through the surgical transition shouldn't be force teamed with males with a sexual fetish / paraphilia to invade and cross boundaries.

They certainly have Datun. How weird.

@GingerAndTheBiscuits

The person that ran those workshops - who Stonewall asked the BBC not to name - does googling that person’s name bring up any articles that might call into question their suitability for their role? Just wondering whether there’s something else behind the decision not to name

Good question. There is something on 4th Wave Now by GNC Centric, who also spoke about it on the Benjamin Boyce podcast.

That was the most intriguing bit about the article. Safeguarding for whom? Perhaps a fear that attaching her name to it would bring abuse to her.

Why is race dragged into sexual orientation on this very thread? It makes me sick 🤮.

Sexual orientation is innate and relates to attraction to same sex , opposite sex or both. This is protected in law.

I am sorry for the people who feel that they cannot get sex. It must be hard. But the right to sex is not protected in law. Forcing yourself on someone against their will is rape. Trying to shame people to have sex with you is rapey.