BBC article about cotton ceiling

[GingerAndTheBiscuits]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385 including Angela Wild, Rose of Dawn and Debbie Hayton. There’s no way this would have been published even just a few months ago 🤯

people have been deleted for saying pretty much everything that's in that article

Watershed indeed

@BraveBananaBadge

Went on Twitter to see what the Novara thing was about - caught lots of outraged lefty men decrying the BBC for "fake news" at the same time. Fake news, ffs! With whom do we associate that meaningless phrase? They just refuse to believe what is in front of them. All those women speaking up and using their real names and they still won't take them seriously.

Meanwhile another dodgy statement is all the engaging Stonewall are prepared to do. Ignoring legitimate questions, with the usual trans commenters also not being prepared to stand up to scrutiny, is getting them nowhere. I somewhat sympathise individuals may feel under attack and as if they're being set up. They want to control the narrative and can't do so with their words in someone else's hands. But if they can't explain themselves that only highlights how vast the problem is.

If it's fake news they can show us the dating apps, or sites, that are literally lesbian only. Where you can say biological women only, please.

Just a couple would do.

Please God let this be the sunlight moment necessary and for the tide to finally be turning. So so sorry for those poor women who were raped.

Is it because of Tinder or something?

actually now I think about it, the other influence on this bizarre way of thinking about desire is probably porn, which is neatly arranged by category for men to easily find the particular kind of person they fetishise. Although oddly enough, men's porn preferences, no matter how harmful, misogynistic, racist, borderline-pedophilic or disgusting, are almost never "problematised" the way women's dating decisions are.

Jo Maugham has commented that the story is “bigoted” because it’s an “ugly story that suggests this is how a minority group behaves.” I don’t understand this at all: the story is very clear that it’s about a small subset of trans women and not all trans women. It has quotes from trans women decrying the cotton ceiling. Are women just supposed to keep quiet and not talk about their experiences? Or is the suggestion that this isn’t really happening and it’s a scare mongering smear against trans women?

@PronounssheRa

On a lighter note, I never expected to see these words in a BBC article 'How do you know you don't like dick if you haven't tried it?'"

I guess the only way to report on the abuse is to include what is actually said by the abusers. Agree we wouldn't have imagined this on the BBC in the past

having thought a bit more about this I wouldn’t date a trans man. (I am a hetero woman).

This is a sexual orientation. You don’t want to have sex with someone with a vagina. Only with someone with a penis. That is ok.

It is also ok not to want to have sex with someone with a penis. And exclusively want to have sex with someone with a vagina.

What Stonewall has done and some TRAs are doing is trying to shame people to go against their legally protected sexual orientation. And call them abusive names because they don’t want to sleep with you.

What I'll never understand is why, if someone doesn't find you attractive, would you want to sleep with them?!

Thanks for the link to send feedback to the BBC, I’ve thanked them

It’s such shocking stuff.

@VladmirsPoutine

I've just glanced through other social media platforms and it seems this article has caused all manner of outrage. Most trans people aren't out here trying to rape women.

Neither are most police officers but there's a conversation to be had there too about culture, language, coercion and sexual assault within law enforcement. The common denominator being male people.

Women are allowed to talk about their experiences without being dismissed and shouted down.

What I'll never understand is why, if someone doesn't find you attractive, would you want to sleep with them?!

This seems to be a sexual preference that is almost exclusive to people with penises. It would be great if PWP would examine the societal pressures and prejudices which have created this actually problematic sexual preference and idk maybe start running workshops on overcoming it.

95% of the adult pop is hetero (ONS) that leaves a a small number non hetero scattered over the country - stands to reason it will be tricky finding a suitable partner.

Wow, cannot believe this is on the BBC! What a tide turning moment indeed!

The thing is, how can you call it 'biased' when you have a full quote from Stonewall, saying the exact thing that you are calling the BBC 'appalling' for writing the article about? It's right there! Plus a screenshot of Rachel McKinnon saying that exact thing as well!

The reaction on Twitter is as predicted, but still utterly grim to see. Comparing a lesbian not wanting to have sex with a male to wanting all immigrants to leave the country or being in the KKK. Fuck off mate.

And of course we have the usual 'I will loudly virtue signal about women's rights and how we must believe women, until women say something that doesn't fit my narrative, then I will accuse them of being liars and, well, it's only a small number of women anyway.....'

Robert Jessel on Twitter

""Today's piece was ready 6 months ago but it's been hard to get signed off on high. It's actually coincidental that it has come at the same time as Nolan and the imminent (although not signed off) Stonewall exit.""

Twitter

I am sorry for the people who feel that they cannot get sex. It must be hard. But the right to sex is not protected in law…

Even Srinivasan acknowledges there is no entitlement to sex in her original essay (the origins of the book) that argues that the preferences that shape desire are a political phenomenon. It is wholly wrong for Kelley (and others) to use that to conflate sexual preferences and orientation (as PPs point out).

www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v40/n06/amia-srinivasan/does-anyone-have-the-right-to-sex

This does, of course, have overlaps with many other social and political arguments that seek to reify male entitlement to sex.

I agree that no-one is entitled to anyone's affections. But if someone were to say only date Japanese women because they find them more docile or say Black men because of their mythical hypersexuality then it is for lack of a better term problematic.

Totally different thing. You’re talking about fetishisation of a minority group by a dominant group which is disgusting (few groups have more experience of fetishisation than lesbians btw). The dominant group wants to have sex with the minority group based on stereotypes about the minority group and this kind of exploitation causes significant harm to the minority group.

But we’re talking about the opposite - one group NOT wanting to have sex with another group of people. No one is harmed by other people NOT sexually exploiting them (unless you’re an MRA and you believe men have a right to sex).

Sorry, that should have said at top 'source at BBC'

It's Cologne again, isn't it? "Yes, this deviant sexual behaviour might possibly be happening, but the group doing it are very oppressed, so just don't mention it, eh, women?"

@GingerAndTheBiscuits

Stonewall: “Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.“

This is conversion therapy by any other name isn’t it? “if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like men, or women, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.” So sexuality is nurture not nature and we can all be shaped out of it.

Stonewall are not immune to societal prejudices. Its a shame they haven't reflect on this and their own misgynogy in their defence of rape culture and the sexual abuse/coercion of women.

Also interesting to see their lesbophobia on show in an article talking about how traditional LGBT groups ignore the issues that lesbians feel. It shows up how homophobia is ingrained into Stonewall in their support of extreme trans activism.

Also interesting to see the point that some transwomen also regard trans activism extremistic, toxic and not necessarily representative being expressed very clearly by the BBC.

The fact Stonewall are apparently completely blind to their own sexism and homophobia needs shouting from the rooftops. Its good to see Stonewall, actively doing this themselves own their own terms.

Thus demostrating vividly what the rampant evil witches of Mumnet have been saying for sometime as clear as day - Stonewall don't care about women and Stonewall don't care about the conversion and coercive tactics being used by many trans activist and don't want to even acknowledge there is a problem with it even when you have a bunch of lesbians banding together to say how afraid they are to even express this to the point that they don't feel able to report or even talk about rapes and abuse they are facing because of this toxic culture of 'political correctness'.

There is nothing politically correct in telling women who have just said they have been raped or felt like they were subject to abuse/ sexual coercion which felt like conversion therapy to 'reflect on their social prejudices'.

Stonewall are now officially rape apologists. I hope people see it and say it.

Stonewall are homophobic, racist, sexist rape apologists who support violence and abuse to women and won't take an active stand against it.

It is beyond the point where this is a controversial opinion worthy of silencing when you see articles like this.

Also the utter fucking hypocrisy of Owen Jones (again!) dismissing women's experiences because 'it's a small survey' when he shared that Pink News Amy Dyess article last year (which Pink News has now to apologise to Julie Bindel for) which was based on the experiences of one person, and turned put to be horseshit anyway. What a complete knob!

@VladmirsPoutine

Having thought about this a bit more, I wouldn't date a trans man (I'm a hetero woman).

Thank you for your honesty.

So BBC exit from Stonewall imminent according to that tweet

twitter.com/robjessel/status/1452970450779348996

@WeeBisom

Jo Maugham has commented that the story is “bigoted” because it’s an “ugly story that suggests this is how a minority group behaves.” I don’t understand this at all: the story is very clear that it’s about a small subset of trans women and not all trans women. It has quotes from trans women decrying the cotton ceiling. Are women just supposed to keep quiet and not talk about their experiences? Or is the suggestion that this isn’t really happening and it’s a scare mongering smear against trans women?

This is not a long-term strategy, is it.

Someone is going to ask him well what's a lesbian then? Should lesbians include transwomen in their dating pool, on apps, etc?

The tactic is to minimise or disagree, and then not answer any questions afterwards.

Fortunately, this fake outrage, followed by the utter refusal to engage, is being noticed by everyone.

@OvaHere You've definitely got me there with the police analogy. I bang on about how 'a few bad apples' is an appalling lens through which to view systemic police abuse(s), in fact I take it even further than that.

Also interested in why this article is listed under "England" on the BBC when it should be applicable to all. For certain it's needed in Scotland!

Best one i've seen for a long time. There could be a follow up on all the poor gay men forced into sleeping with transmen and the straight men who are being co-coerced into sleeping with transwomen - oh wait....

I might never have come across it if it had not been noted here, but then that was maybe the point?