BBC article about cotton ceiling

[GingerAndTheBiscuits]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385 including Angela Wild, Rose of Dawn and Debbie Hayton. There’s no way this would have been published even just a few months ago 🤯

Most trans people aren't out here trying to rape women.

Of course they’re not. The article says nothing of the sort. But perhaps they need to shout up a bit louder about those who are? In the same way we’re calling on men to help fix the problem of violence against women and girls, so transwomen need to show how they’re countering this kind of behaviour among their peers, no?

On a separate note, there was a comment earlier about it not being reported how straight men react to being with transwomen, but I think there have been fairly recent cases of straight men assaulting (I think it may have been murder but not 100% sure) transwomen upon finding out they were trans. That is clearly horrific also. But it’s a man problem, not a women or lesbian problem.

I skim read in delight.
Only thing missing for me iirc was the cotton ceiling workshops organised by students in the UK?
I think I've remembered that correctly?

So the main gripe on Twitter seems to be the sample size of 80. Yet they gave no such compunction when bandying around the suicide stats from a sample size of 27.

I’m glad this is getting coverage in the BBC. The ‘Cotton Ceiling’ was what planted the first seems of growth for my daughter to stop identifying as transgender. The older trans females, aged 18/19, in her friendship group, coerced a young lesbian, age 13, to have sex with them to prove she wasn’t transphobic. My daughter and her friend were cast out of the LGBT group for being ‘transphobic’ - for standing up for their 13 year old friend’s right not to be pressured to have sex with anyone, let alone someone aged 19.

Really disappointed to see that the lesbian comedian Rosie Jones is on twitter calling this article 'transphobic' and a 'piece of trash.'

twitter.com/josierones/status/1452951538461196291

First fawning reply is from high-profile lesbian India 'let that penetrate' Willoughby, and there are many similar comments following. (I wonder if Rosie would actually consider dating any of the self-id lesbians rushing to thank her for her support?)

[quote VladmirsPoutine]@ColinTheKoala Yes! I agree that no-one is entitled to anyone's affections. But if someone were to say only date Japanese women because they find them more docile or say Black men because of their mythical hypersexuality then it is for lack of a better term problematic.[/quote]
Ffs. That's sexual preference.

There are all sorts of reasons for it. Some will be the result of misconception, and of course some will be prejudice and many will be life experience. My best friend will never ever date anyone called Michael, because she was bullied by a Michael at school.

Mostly, it will be something completely indefinable that no one can ever put their finger on. Who the fuck is going spend their lifetime examining why they fancy blondes?

I'll never get over some people's determination to unravel all the reasons why women don't want to have sex.

Seriously, what is in it for women?

And that's not what this is about. It's conflating two concepts in order to judge one on the basis of the other.

Sexual orientation is not a sexual preference.

Rapists are rapists. There should be no special category that is allowed to get away with it

Isnt it in itself homophobic and transphobic to not report on cases where the perpetrators of the offences are part of the lgbt community?

Why is expecting them to behave to the same standard of everyone else problematic. Do they not feel they ate capable? Or that they need to be asked to do these things in order to be fully involved in life? Who's the real transphobe here

But if someone were to say only date Japanese women because they find them more docile

Love this attempt to equate homosexuality with crude fetishistic racism.

Anyway it's the Japanese women you feel sorry for in this scenario. Obviously a fetishising sexual preference that leads to dehumanisation and harassment of the targets, such as the examples you've listed or oooh, I don't know, a man with a sexual fetish for lesbians, is completely different from a sexual preference that excludes some demographics, and it's a million miles apart from a sexual orientation.

@NonHypotheticalLurkingParent

So the main gripe on Twitter seems to be the sample size of 80. Yet they gave no such compunction when bandying around the suicide stats from a sample size of 27.

I’m glad this is getting coverage in the BBC. The ‘Cotton Ceiling’ was what planted the first seems of growth for my daughter to stop identifying as transgender. The older trans females, aged 18/19, in her friendship group, coerced a young lesbian, age 13, to have sex with them to prove she wasn’t transphobic. My daughter and her friend were cast out of the LGBT group for being ‘transphobic’ - for standing up for their 13 year old friend’s right not to be pressured to have sex with anyone, let alone someone aged 19.

Or indeed - has been pointed out - the self selecting group of 8 runners that was used by the IOC to change all of women's sports.

So the main gripe on Twitter seems to be the sample size of 80. Yet they gave no such compunction when bandying around the suicide stats from a sample size of 27.

or the sample size of 8 transwomen who said they felt they could run a bit slower, leading transwomen Harper to present this as 'evidence' to the International Olympic Committee IOC to turn women's sports into mixed sex sports. It took over 100 years to get womens sports category and less than a week for 1 transwoman and a sample size of 8 people to destroy women's sports and young women have missed out on their olympic dreams to be replaced by mediocre males.

[quote VladmirsPoutine]@ColinTheKoala Yes! I agree that no-one is entitled to anyone's affections. But if someone were to say only date Japanese women because they find them more docile or say Black men because of their mythical hypersexuality then it is for lack of a better term problematic.[/quote]
Do you think dating people based on racist prejudice is comparable to a sexual orientation toward a sex or both sexes?

This is amazing.

• she says, coming late to the party, having not RTFT.

Sunlight everywhere.

Good to see the views of lots of people being aired and shared.

[quote VladmirsPoutine]@ColinTheKoala Yes! I agree that no-one is entitled to anyone's affections. But if someone were to say only date Japanese women because they find them more docile or say Black men because of their mythical hypersexuality then it is for lack of a better term problematic.[/quote]
Problematic examples like that are similar to those used by Srinivasan in the interviews about her book. In the interviews she discusses experiments run on online dating apps and the one I most recall, because she uses it a lot, was run on Tinder.

One of my many difficulties with the class of [X] argument around preferences that manifest themselves in the experience of desire is that there was no nuance or exploration of context. Most (?) people don't discover that they no longer desire their partner when they acquire a disability as they age.

tbh, maybe my views on dating apps are skewed by the experience of friends and family and my peeks at the Relationships board on MN, but online dating and swiping seems set up to encourage a certain sort of mindset and reaction. I wouldn't care about the fully-featured rounded personality of anybody who deems it acceptable to send unsolicited photographs.

final squawk of the Oozlum bird

The things that I end up googling because of MN.

@WonderfulYou

Although I agree with what they’re saying - I probably wouldn’t want to be with a ‘man’ if I later found out they had a vagina whether they are M-F or F-M but I’m struggling to see how someone is forced into having sex with someone (unless physically raped).

I get that they would ‘out’ them as being transphobic but I personally don’t think that would be enough for me to have sex with someone I don’t want to.
Same as if someone from a different race wanted to have sex with me and threatened to call me racist I’d just tell them to F off.

Sex by coercion is rape.

Just because you wouldn’t find those arguments coercive enough doesn’t change the reality that it’s rape.

One point that is not highlighted enough about Stonewall is that they EMPLOY the person who ran the Cotton Ceiling workshops. They knew about the Cotton Ceiling workshops, and decided that this was a suitable employee.

At my SW employer I had ‘diversity training’ from that same person in January this year. I found that shocking/appalling and it was the moment that I woke up to what was going on.

@IvyTwines2

I think it must be that by now most people working at the BBC will have a family member or friend with a child or teenager who says they identify as trans and want hormones and surgery. These adults can't look at, for example, the Facebook whistleblower stuff about the affect of social media on teenagers and anorexia and not connect it with the elephant in the room with many families they know.

I was thinking the same thing whilst watching the online harms committee yesterday afternoon. It's a huge elephant in the room because for all the handwringing about self harm and eating disorders they're ignoring the biggest growing contagion amongst distressed teenage girls.

On a more positive note I was massively shocked (in a good way) to see the BBC put this out today. It's about 5 years worth of journalistic suppression in one article. About time they played catch up.

Whilst it is great to see this coverage I'm not sure how many people will actually see the article - if you click through to the BBC homepage and then on through to UK/England, even scrolling down it doesn't seem to appear anywhere?
It could certainly do with 1000s of clicks from MN users so that the BBC can see that people are interested in this.

@GrimDamnFanjo

I skim read in delight. Only thing missing for me iirc was the cotton ceiling workshops organised by students in the UK? I think I've remembered that correctly?

No it was a Canadian transwoman sex worker from toronto who arranged for teenage females to be abused by 30 year old males in an LGBT youth group there, promote sex work and then come to London to join the Stonewall senior team. Where this person in an official Stonewall capacity told employers of lesbian Barrister Allison Bailey that she was a problem (for calling out the cotton ceiling workshops and other lesbophobia), causing Allison to lose work through her chambers - the case will be heard in the high court next year I think.

Flammkuchen

One point that is not highlighted enough about Stonewall is that they EMPLOY the person who ran the Cotton Ceiling workshops. They knew about the Cotton Ceiling workshops, and decided that this was a suitable employee.

And then tell schoolchildren that bearded Alex Drummond is a lesbian.

The title of the workshop was: "Overcoming the Cotton Ceiling: Breaking Down Sexual Barriers for Queer Trans Women", and the description explained how participants would "work together to identify barriers, strategize ways to overcome them, and build community

I really cannot get over the fact that this is approved of today. It's so backward.

This basically teaches people how to trample all over women's boundaries, an instructional workshop how to manipulate women to giving up access their bodies, dressed in progressive language.

NO MEANS NO.

@MissChanandlerBong81

Are stonewall saying that a person's sexual preference can be created by societal pressure?

They certainly appear to be. Which is very odd because for decades they (rightly) campaigned against the toxic notion that homosexuality is something that can be ‘caught’, learned, or adopted after being promoted by society. Section 28 was based on that very idea.

How can Stonewall blatantly spout such homophobic nonsense? I just can't get my head around what they are actually inferring with that statement.

Are there any homosexual people left in their team? Do they believe in what they are saying or have they gone that far down a trans-centred route that they are totally unable to lose face and reflect at all on what and who they stand for?

@MsFogi

Whilst it is great to see this coverage I'm not sure how many people will actually see the article - if you click through to the BBC homepage and then on through to UK/England, even scrolling down it doesn't seem to appear anywhere? It could certainly do with 1000s of clicks from MN users so that the BBC can see that people are interested in this.

Ignore me - I've looked again and see it is in a box on the second row so that is great . Now just needs a huge number of reads!

Still didn't allow comments, though - someone should send Tim Davie over here!

@Datun

Flammkuchen

One point that is not highlighted enough about Stonewall is that they EMPLOY the person who ran the Cotton Ceiling workshops. They knew about the Cotton Ceiling workshops, and decided that this was a suitable employee.

And then tell schoolchildren that bearded Alex Drummond is a lesbian.

... followed by claiming that males can choose which toilets/showers to use, and that exceptions based on sex, need to be written out of the law.

I really can’t believe we have got to a point in society where women’s consent is so flagrantly denigrated in public.

It make me so sad that there are women who feel they have to justify their sexuality or feel like they can’t say no due to external pressure.

I am glad the light is starting to shine on the militant, violent, hostile and oppressive behaviour that is being levelled at women.