BBC article about cotton ceiling

[GingerAndTheBiscuits]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385 including Angela Wild, Rose of Dawn and Debbie Hayton. There’s no way this would have been published even just a few months ago 🤯

until they used their biased poll to make it appear like the majority of (cis) lesbians felt pressured into sex with trans lesbians.

Can you quote something from the article doing that?

until they used their biased poll to make it appear like the majority of (cis) lesbians felt pressured into sex with trans lesbians.

Except they didn't.

She said that of the 80 women who did respond, 56% reported being pressured or coerced to accept a trans woman as a sexual partner.

While acknowledging the sample may not be representative of the wider lesbian community, she believes it was important to capture their "points of view and stories".
...
If it happens to one woman it's wrong. As it turns out it happens to more than one woman."

I've copied the relevant part of the article here for you. Where does she "make it appear like the majority of (cis) lesbians felt pressured into sex with trans lesbians"?

She has said "the sample may not be representative of the wider lesbian community", but makes the point that it has happened to a number of women. That's all.

Did you even read the article or did someone on twitter read it for you and tell you what to say?

@CatherinaJTV

It’s interesting that we do have to listen to the women who have made allegations against Lily Cade but don’t have to listen to the women reporting their experiences with transwomen. Real headscratcher, that one.

Of course we need to listen to women who are put under pressure to engage in sex with someone they don't want to have sex with. Chloe in the article got raped by a trans woman and that is obviously horrendous as any rape. It doesn't mean that all or the majority of trans women are rapists.

Amy got pressured by her (cis, I assume) girlfriend, so not by a trans woman at all. Do we villify all cis bisexual women now?

As in the (imo very good) statement from the Stonewall member: noone should be coerced to have sex with anyone they don't want to have sex with.

So are we going to discuss what societal prejudices shaped her girlfriend into thinking treating a partner like this was acceptable?

"The first thing she called me was transphobic," Amy said. "She immediately jumped to make me feel guilty about not wanting to sleep with someone."

She said the trans woman in question had not undergone genital surgery, so still had a penis.

(continues)

Soon afterwards Amy and her girlfriend split up.

"I remember she was extremely shocked and angry, and claimed my views were extremist propaganda and inciting violence towards the trans community, as well as comparing me to far-right groups," she said.

Not having sex with a transwoman with a penis was inciting violence. What gave her ex-girlfriend this idea?

Let's look at that Stonewall statement again.

Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

Let's look at what came after the "but":
if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

So do you expect the allegations around this particular woman to be taken seriously by those same people? And if yes, why?

I would have expected a minimum of background research on the sources in the article. Not sure whether that answers your question.

Now I had never heard of her before, and I don't know about the allegations, but I am well aware that women can be sexual predators. And I find the pivot from denial, dismissal and blaming/shaming very interesting to observe, especially because the sex of that alleged predator is female and the sex of all the others discussed is male.

not really - Amy, for example, was pressured by her cis (I assume) female girlfriend, so this doesn't even fit the headline (shoddy, as I said).

Do you think this is another form of sexism?

In the response to the article? I don't think so - I have seen two main points (that I agree with): the use of the poll violates BBC policy on the quality of polls to be used. And a handful of anecdotes (most of which don't even fit the "pressured by a trans woman" bill) do not allow such a "moral panic" article.

There's more that's bad about it, for example Debbie Heyton making a blanket statement about the sexual orientation of trans women which we know is not correct (she says trans women are mostly into women, actual research shows that trans women are often bi or pan sexual).

Genuine question back: is my criticism of DH sexist against women in your opinion?

Amy got pressured by her (cis, I assume) girlfriend, so not by a trans woman at all. Do we villify all cis bisexual women now?

Did Anmy get called a transphobic bigot by her community for saying no? Some transwomen are rapists but we must ignore it because it brings disapproval on our community sounds a bit like all those priests and nuns trying to hide all the paedophilia in the Church. What happened to #Believe Women.

if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

What is wrong with this statement?

@334bu

*Amy got pressured by her (cis, I assume) girlfriend, so not by a trans woman at all. Do we villify all cis bisexual women now?*

Did Anmy get called a transphobic bigot by her community for saying no? Some transwomen are rapists but we must ignore it because it brings disapproval on our community sounds a bit like all those priests and nuns trying to hide all the paedophilia in the Church. What happened to #Believe Women.

some cis female lesbians are rapists - why are we ignoring this but concentrate on rape by trans women?

@CatherinaJTV

if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

What is wrong with this statement?

A lot.

'The majority of lesbians? How many lesbians do you think there are - 100?'

There are deffo more than 100 lesbians, but I'm sure someone will pop along in a mo to say how 'illogical' that is...

It's the Crucible, isn't it? The Wrong Book. The Wrong Thoughts. The Wrong Sex.

Fuck
Right
off

If I would be dating, I would write off all women as I am heterosexual?

Do I need to examine how society has shaped these preferences?

Or is it ok if (should I ever date again) just state that I am dating men only?

actual research shows that trans women are often bi or pan sexual

Can you link us to this research CatherinaJTV, please? (I do hope it has more than 80 participants!)

*So are we going to discuss what societal prejudices shaped her girlfriend into thinking treating a partner like this was acceptable?

"The first thing she called me was transphobic," Amy said. "She immediately jumped to make me feel guilty about not wanting to sleep with someone."*

Fact remains, it wasn't the trans woman who pressured Amy, it was her girlfriend.

@CatherinaJTV

if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

What is wrong with this statement?

Lesbians are attracted to people of the same sex. Not gender. Sex.

Why should they want to have sex with someone with a penis?

That's not societal prejudices. That's their fucking sexual orientation.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

My preferred version:

If you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, that's up to you.

Your body is not subject to equality legislation. You are not providing a service, you are seeking a mutually satisfying relationship.

It doesn't matter why you don't want to date someone. Maybe it's their sex. Maybe it's because they wear uggs. Your No, means NO.

I quote myself from yesterday. The only point at which you need to examine your preferences is when you find you have whittled down your pool of acceptable partners to zero.

some cis female lesbians are rapists - why are we ignoring this but concentrate on rape by trans women?

Not in the U.K. they aren’t, where rape requires penetration with a penis.

Unless the cis female lesbians have been growing penises, there’s a striking and necessary reason why trans women and cis women might not both be equally in the conversation about rape.

FFS.

@CatherinaJTV

if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

What is wrong with this statement?

Since you seem to need it spelt out.

This article is about lesbians and transwomen, so I'll change the wording slightly to help you.

"if you [as a lesbian] find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like women of colour, fat women, disabled women or transwomen, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions."

One of those groups of people is not like the others.

Stonewall is telling lesbians that only being attracted to female people is due to 'prejudice'.

@foxgoosefinch

actual research shows that trans women are often bi or pan sexual

Can you link us to this research CatherinaJTV, please? (I do hope it has more than 80 participants!)

900 in a properly conducted study

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33483604/

Data from 469 transgender women (TW) and 433 transgender men (TM) were analyzed cross-sectionally and prospectively. At baseline, more than half reported having no partner (35% of TW, 47% of TM). After 12 months, more than half reported having a partner (59% of TW, 56% of TM), with no changes between one and three years of HT. The majority of TM preferred a female partner, TW preferred male and female partners.

Fact remains, it wasn't the trans woman who pressured Amy, it was her girlfriend.

Yes. The article doesn't claim the pressure only comes from transwomen.

some cis female lesbians are rapists - why are we ignoring this but concentrate on rape by trans women?

@CatherinaJTV Yours may be the most moronic post of this thread.

First, the use of the term "cis" is offensive. Second, lesbians are female, by definition. And females cannot be rapists as this crime requires a penis, which females do not have.

"We" are not "ignoring" anything. What you are saying is a physical impossibility - not only does it not exist; it cannot exist.

And "whatabouttery" is a logical fallacy.

This thread has descended into the most desperate whataboutery and excuse-making by genderists now - I think the “why aren’t we focusing on cis women who rape instead” is a particularly low and obnoxiously stupid point.

Stonewall is telling lesbians that only being attracted to female people is due to 'prejudice'.

Societal prejudice.

@CatherinaJTV

if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

What is wrong with this statement?

I'm taken aback that you are acknowledging: –your lack of understanding of adults and social interactions; –ditto for the distinction between preferences and sexual orientation; –that you have not, and have no intention of RTFT, to identify where these issues have been addressed so that you might build on prior discussion.

A reminder that Robert Lifton has outlined the 8 criteria of thought reform (research conducted with prisoners of war who'd been subjected to thought reform techniques; people in closed communities etc.):

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4382551-Live-not-by-lies-Solzhenitsyn-no-tambourines-involved?msgid=111900052

Also a reminder of the prior research in online communities, especially the Cornell and Stanford paper:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3438714-Bunbury-s-Public-Service-Announcement-2

So transpeople can have preferences about the sex of their partners but lesbians can't ?

Another gift that keeps on giving

I am not aware an a massive amount of cases of (biological) lesbian rapists. I believe you need a penis to rape?

If this indeed is a massive problem, I think the interested people should start a thread on it. And post some research. I am happy with qualitative studies and about 80 should do it. I promise to comment on the thread.

Could we get back to discussing transwomen coercion of lesbians now? And the fact that this is being denied, suppressed and that the people talking about it are being threatened?