Page 38 | BBC article about cotton ceiling

GingerAndTheBiscuits · 2021-10-26T08:54:57+00:00

[[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385]] including Angela Wild, Rose of Dawn and Debbie Hayton. There’s no way this would have been published even just a few months ago 🤯

Datun · 27/10/2021 12:11

CatherinaJTV

Realityisreal
*@CatherinaJTV So would it be okay to use the term 'some transwomen' rather than 'all transwomen' or 'the majority of transwomen' when discussing this?

"until they used their biased poll to make it appear like the majority of (cis) lesbians felt pressured into sex with trans lesbians."

And that's why this only goes one way. Repeating the million times refuted arguments, over and over, is brilliant for showing exactly how empty the empty barrel is.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/10/2021 12:11

@CatherinaJTV

*So are we going to discuss what societal prejudices shaped her girlfriend into thinking treating a partner like this was acceptable?

"The first thing she called me was transphobic," Amy said. "She immediately jumped to make me feel guilty about not wanting to sleep with someone."*

Fact remains, it wasn't the trans woman who pressured Amy, it was her girlfriend.

Yes. The article is very clear about that.

So are you going to engage with the issue being exposed here: a subculture that will excuse and enable rapists? A culture where No is not accepted?

You realise the article is explicitly discussing that, yes?

Here are some quotes.

"Ultimately, it has been difficult to determine the true scale of the problem because there has been little research on this topic - only one survey to my knowledge. However, those affected have told me the pressure comes from a minority of trans women, as well as activists who are not necessarily trans themselves."

(Continues)

""I felt very bad for hating every moment, because the idea is we are attracted to gender rather than sex, and I did not feel that, and I felt bad for feeling like that," she said.

Ashamed and embarrassed, she decided not to tell anyone.

"The language at the time was very much 'trans women are women, they are always women, lesbians should date them'. And I was like, that's the reason I rejected this person. Does that make me bad? Am I not going to be allowed to be in the LGBT community anymore? Am I going to face repercussions for that instead?' So I didn't actually tell anyone."

(Continues)

She believes the idea that dating preferences are transphobic is being pushed by radical trans activists and their "self-proclaimed allies", who have extreme views which don't reflect the views of trans women she knows in real life.

"Certainly from my own friends group, the trans women I'm friends with, almost all of them agree lesbians are free to exclude trans women from their dating pool," she said.

However, she believes even trans people are afraid to talk openly about this for fear of abuse.

"People like me receive quite a lot of abuse from trans activists and their allies," she said.

"The trans activist side is incredibly rabid against people who they see as stepping out of line."

Artichokeleaves · 27/10/2021 12:12

Useful to see in action what homosexual females are dealing with.

Lots of denial that this happens
Lots of blaming and dismissing of sources

Lots of obfustication and red herrings to paint women bad too
Lots of attempts to raise guilt about possible internal prejudices

And then quietly a re affirmation: what's wrong with telling homosexual women that they are prejudiced to say no to sex with males and should 'get over this'?

I'm not engaging with it, it's just plain wrong. But if you want to see what the BBC and all the women speaking up are on about: here it is. On this thread. On every thread where women have ever raised this issue in the past few years.

It's all here. Just lacking the guts to say straight out: females should not be able to exclude males from their bodies and own it.

334bu · 27/10/2021 12:12

some cis female lesbians are rapists - why are we ignoring this but concentrate on rape by trans women?
76 transwomen in prison for sexual offences against 125 women prisoners, a number which might also include some transwomen with a G RC and may include heterosexual women. Given that women are 51% of the population and transwomen at a stretch 0.5%. Wonder who are more dangerous to women ??

OldCrone · 27/10/2021 12:13

the use of the poll violates BBC policy on the quality of polls to be used

It's just as well that no such poll appeared in this article then, isn't it? Or are you discussing a different article?

A questionnaire, with some results given as a percentage of the people who responded. Perhaps that's what's confusing you?

But as I said in an earlier post, the person who sent out the questionnaire said herself that the sample may not be representative of the wider lesbian community. So it wasn't presented as being representative at all.

Do go and read the whole article and take a bit of time to try to understand it before posting again. It's much better to understand what is being discussed before taking part in a discussion like this.

CatherinaJTV · 27/10/2021 12:14

*Lesbians are attracted to people of the same sex. Not gender. Sex.

Why should they want to have sex with someone with a penis?

That's not societal prejudices. That's their fucking sexual orientation.*

There are plenty of cis lesbians in a relationship with trans female lesbians.

NecessaryScene · 27/10/2021 12:14

Fact remains, it wasn't the trans woman who pressured Amy, it was her girlfriend.

So? What's your point?

The article is about lesbians and what they are facing due to "trans rights" activism.

We know many of those backing abuse of women are not actually trans - such as yourself, or Nancy Kelley.

I know you want this all to just be transphobia and blaming transwomen. Sorry if it causes cognitive dissonance when you see non-trans people being criticised.

PronounssheRa · 27/10/2021 12:15

@CatherinaJTV

Stonewall is telling lesbians that only being attracted to female people is due to 'prejudice'.

Societal prejudice.

it's sexual orientation as protected under the Equality Act.

Stonewall have gone from 'some people are gay get over it' to 'gay people need to get over their sexual orientation'.

bordersroaming · 27/10/2021 12:16

We are concentrating on the first article to cover the hidden abuse of lesbians

It's not about female rapists or the state of the Amazon forest

It's about the bullying of lesbians by a community that is desperately trying to hide this

Given how few transwomen there are , you'd need a hell of a lot more female rapists to be able to suggest that the behaviour of the transwomen is similar to that of females

334bu · 27/10/2021 12:16

There are plenty of cis lesbians in a relationship with trans female lesbians. Nothing wrong with being bisexual!

CatherinaJTV · 27/10/2021 12:17

76 transwomen in prison for sexual offences against 125 women prisoners

? link please

CatherinaJTV · 27/10/2021 12:17

@334bu

*There are plenty of cis lesbians in a relationship with trans female lesbians.* Nothing wrong with being bisexual!

here we have the "sub culture" of women telling other women what their sexual orientation is...

CatherinaJTV · 27/10/2021 12:18

in any case - lunch break over...

AlfonsoTheUnrepetant · 27/10/2021 12:18

@CatherinaJTV

*Lesbians are attracted to people of the same sex. Not gender. Sex.

Why should they want to have sex with someone with a penis?

That's not societal prejudices. That's their fucking sexual orientation.*

There are plenty of cis lesbians in a relationship with trans female lesbians.

What is a "trans female lesbian"? There are transwomen and transmen, but not "trans females".

And if they are having sex with bepenised persons, they are not lesbians as being a lesbian means "same sex attracted". Not same gender; same sex, although this has been pointed out to you many times and your posts continue to ignore this fundamental point.

Datun · 27/10/2021 12:18

There are plenty of cis lesbians in a relationship with trans female lesbians.

No there aren't, lol.

The word lesbian is taken. Get over it

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/10/2021 12:19

We have heard quite enough from you on how you think it's prejudiced for lesbians not to fancy people with penises.

Move on, before I end up throwing up all over my keyboard. Have you considered how posts like yours contribute to the social environment Amy was in?

She didn't want to have a threesome with a transwoman. This is what happened.

"The first thing she called me was transphobic," Amy said. "She immediately jumped to make me feel guilty about not wanting to sleep with someone."

She said the trans woman in question had not undergone genital surgery, so still had a penis.

(Continues)

Soon afterwards Amy and her girlfriend split up.

"I remember she was extremely shocked and angry, and claimed my views were extremist propaganda and inciting violence towards the trans community, as well as comparing me to far-right groups," she said.

Because Amy didn't want to have sex. Is there a single post of yours on this thread that would make Amy feel reassured she had a right to say no, and that she didn't have an obligation to talk herself into it?

Alektopteryx · 27/10/2021 12:19

@Artichokeleaves

Useful to see in action what homosexual females are dealing with.

Lots of denial that this happens
Lots of blaming and dismissing of sources

Lots of obfustication and red herrings to paint women bad too
Lots of attempts to raise guilt about possible internal prejudices

And then quietly a re affirmation: what's wrong with telling homosexual women that they are prejudiced to say no to sex with males and should 'get over this'?

I'm not engaging with it, it's just plain wrong. But if you want to see what the BBC and all the women speaking up are on about: here it is. On this thread. On every thread where women have ever raised this issue in the past few years.

It's all here. Just lacking the guts to say straight out: females should not be able to exclude males from their bodies and own it.

Yep. It's all over twitter too, where #MeToo briefly trended before being removed and replaced by a hashtag for the Aunt Lydias to proclaim their welcome for all men into all women's spaces

foxgoosefinch · 27/10/2021 12:20

@CatherinaJTV, do you have the full study, as the abstract does not actually say what you claimed?

It says “TW preferred both male and female partners”, but it doesn’t say majority or give a figure.

“The sexual identity of their partner matched their sexual orientation in >80%” - notice this doesn’t actually say what actual sex the partners were, only “sexual identity”.

On orientation, obviously, if you like both male and female partners, any partner at all matches your sexual orientation. No mention of pansexuality here either.

The abstract is quite unclear and very badly written. We’d need the full study to really find out what the evidence is, including what the authors define by sex, sexual identity, male, female and so on.

Artichokeleaves · 27/10/2021 12:21

@CatherinaJTV

*Lesbians are attracted to people of the same sex. Not gender. Sex.

Why should they want to have sex with someone with a penis?

That's not societal prejudices. That's their fucking sexual orientation.*

There are plenty of cis lesbians in a relationship with trans female lesbians.

I'm homosexual Catherina.

There is no such thing as a trans female, there are transwomen, who are male. Therefore as a homosexual woman, I will not ever be sexually attracted to or willing to have a sexual relationship with a male person. I see sex. I have a sexual orientation based on sex. How male born people feel about this is not relevant.

Go get your pitchfork, call me whatever names you like. It used to be a matter of Pride that homosexual women could name their sexual orientation and not be ashamed and have to hide it.

MedusasBadHairDay · 27/10/2021 12:22

@CatherinaJTV

if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

What is wrong with this statement?

So if a (cis) man told a lesbian that she should, "try dick, how do you know you don't like it if you've never tried", it's the onus on: a) the lesbian to consider how societal prejudices have led to her ruling out sex with (cis) men? b) the man to examine how societal prejudices have led to him pressuring a lesbian into ignoring her sexual orientation?

ChristinaXYZ · 27/10/2021 12:22

Thanks @Realityisreal . I can find it now by the routes you suggest. It does seem to be unlinked from the main site though. So the unaware cannot accidentally read it - only those with a direct link or who know what terms to search for, or are actively looking for it. Surely this is so that the as yet unpeaked don't get to read it?

334bu · 27/10/2021 12:22

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/954427/FOI_200827019_transgender_prison_population_-_sexual_offenders_by_offence.odt

IvyTwines2 · 27/10/2021 12:22

@FindTheTruth

Seen on twitter. TWEET: "I seriously could cry from relief from that article being published. I was interviewed in September 2020 and thought there was no way it would ever be published. It is a huge, huge, huge deal. Much love to other survivors of the cotton ceiling."

I feel for this person and as Charley says it's the first time mainstream news has covered it. Survivors of any crime or abuse need to be believed.

So how long have the BBC been sitting on this story? Another source quoted on here suggested higher-ups have prevented it being published for at least 6 months. Interesting that it finally comes out now, in the wake of Nolan's investigation into the power and influence of Stonewall.

KingsleyShacklebolt · 27/10/2021 12:22

@334bu

*There are plenty of cis lesbians in a relationship with trans female lesbians.* Nothing wrong with being bisexual!

But that's up to the individual, isn't it?

Leaving the whole trans thing to one side.

I as an individual have the right to choose who I want to have sex with, or have a relationship. If my "type" is a tall man with dark hair and brown eyes, I am not unreasonable to not be attracted to a short, blue-eyed blonde. That short, blue-eyed blonde bloke though can't ask me out, be told thanks but no thanks, and then start accusing me of being phobic against short blonde guys, or telling me I need to address my internal prejudices.

Whatstheweatherlike · 27/10/2021 12:24

Has anyone sent a link for this thread to the BBC yet? I'm sure the journalist, and those trawling through the responses to the article would be interested to see their point being played out yet again here. Those critical of the article have pretty much ticked every possible bingo box imaginable. It really is laid out for everyone to see - lesbians must not be allowed to exclude male bodies from their dating pool. Anyone who disagrees is automatically transphobic and must be silenced.