BBC article about cotton ceiling

[GingerAndTheBiscuits]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385 including Angela Wild, Rose of Dawn and Debbie Hayton. There’s no way this would have been published even just a few months ago 🤯

Criticising a person for the crime of ambition as well

I mean you need to notify the police as well as stir here

That's exactly what logson is saying, yes.

Rape/coercion/abuse only matters when it reaches a certain proportion of people within a community reporting it, apparently.

It's telling when a whole article, full of women's voices and experiences, quotes from organisations, tweets from individuals etc is just handwaved away because of a briefly mentioned 'poll' with a small amount of respondents who as pp have mentioned, was not intended to gauge how common the phenomenon is but of women's experience of it happening.

No comments on the rest of the article? Expressions of shock that even a small amount of lesbians are being pressured into sex they don't want?

Because the denials just look like utter desperation to deny this is happening.

@logsonlogsoff

Still, she's gone from journo no-one's ever heard of to being a headline everywhere which I would imagine was her intention in the first place.

That’s pretty patronising. She’s been a BBC journalist for a decade. uk.linkedin.com/in/caroline-lowbridge-30b022156

really dodgy ‘poll’.

As already discussed in this thread, a project that formed part of a degree and had the scrutiny of an ethics department and academics.

A project that was planned as qualitative research and conducted as such and within an appropriate framework of governance.

Once you see the pre-digested packages of response with no active thought involved then it really is a decision as to whether you're engaging with Turing test experiments or those who are members of a thought reform community.

@logsonlogsoff

80 women surveyed - with a clear bias - out of how many lesbian/queer women in the UK? 80 out of half a million or so? Come on. This whole article, regardless of which side of the argument you sit on, is nothing more than an opinion piece dressed up as 'journalism' and news.

Maybe, just maybe, in between loggin on and logging off, you might find it beneficial to make yourself a cup of tea and read the full thread. This has been addressed several times. This is a first-time mainstream mention of an issue that has plagued the lesbian community for over 10 years (the Cotton Ceiling Workshop was held in 2012). The author of the report states that she has been trying to raise awareness of the hostility lesbians receive within the LGBT community for asserting their same-sex boundaries since then.

The question the article seeks to answer is not how often does this happen. It's does this happen at all? And given how many lesbians have taken to social media to confirm that this happened to them, the answer is a very loud and very clear yes.

People like Finn Mavkay have responded to survivors of male violence coming from within the trans community. Not by disbelieving them. Oh no. By accusing them of bringing the community into disrepute with their testimonials.

That's a rather stark demonstration of an age old problem survivors have always faced when talking about male violence.

The LGBT community had an opportunity here to be better than the Catholic Church or any other institution caught up in abuse scandals. So far, so pathetic.

And you're happily contributing to handwaving the problem away. The responsibility for this particular version of male sexual violence lies not with the survivors disclosing it. It doesn't lie with the journalist writing about it. It doesn't lie with the lesbian researcher highlighting it.

It lies with the male members of the trans community who are carrying out that sexual violence. And all those rushing to condemn those survivors for speaking out.

'This is what we call an 'ad hom' attack. If you can't criticise the content, attack the person.'

It's not an attack, I know quite a few journalists and breaking or writing a story that get s this kind of attention is quite literally what their jobs are all about. They have a bit more integrity though, so don't take the easy tabloid/Daily Mail route of scaremongering, and actually try to write pieces that stand up to scrutiny.
Anyway, it's just an opinion, though mine is based on actually being part of the LGBT+ community rather than being a keyboard warrior on Twitter.

Anyway, it's just an opinion, though mine is based on actually being part of the LGBT+ community rather than being a keyboard warrior on Twitter.

I’m sorry, one opinion isn’t enough, come back when you’ve quantified more than 80 opinions.

Reporting rape isn't scaremongering

I don't see you complaining about the date rape injection articles

Will you just for once in your life focus on the women the article was about

people who can't get the sex they want are not the victims

This isn't Twitter BTW

@logsonlogsoff

'This is what we call an 'ad hom' attack. If you can't criticise the content, attack the person.'

It's not an attack, I know quite a few journalists and breaking or writing a story that get s this kind of attention is quite literally what their jobs are all about. They have a bit more integrity though, so don't take the easy tabloid/Daily Mail route of scaremongering, and actually try to write pieces that stand up to scrutiny.
Anyway, it's just an opinion, though mine is based on actually being part of the LGBT+ community rather than being a keyboard warrior on Twitter.

It's not tabloid/DM though, and according to the bbc response it's been through their rigorous editorial process.

In response to criticism about their coverage, a BBC spokesperson said: 'The article looks at a complex subject from different perspectives and acknowledges it is difficult to assess the extent of the issue.
'It includes testimony from a range of different sources and provides appropriate context. It went through our rigorous editorial processes.
'It is important that journalism looks at issues - even where there are strongly held positions.
'The BBC is here to ensure debate and to make sure a wide a range of voices are heard.'

Interesting distraction tactics going on to divert from the content of the piece

@logsonlogsoff

'This is what we call an 'ad hom' attack. If you can't criticise the content, attack the person.'

It's not an attack, I know quite a few journalists and breaking or writing a story that get s this kind of attention is quite literally what their jobs are all about. They have a bit more integrity though, so don't take the easy tabloid/Daily Mail route of scaremongering, and actually try to write pieces that stand up to scrutiny.
Anyway, it's just an opinion, though mine is based on actually being part of the LGBT+ community rather than being a keyboard warrior on Twitter.

Abject nonsense. If you knew journalists (not working for tabloids), you'd know that this piece was scrutinised before publication every which way - by the legal department as well as editorial and the bosses.

And no, being a journalist is not all about breaking that one story. Given that there is more to journalism than just investigative reporting, I can only conclude that you have little understanding of the profession. And that's in addition to your low opinion of journalists.

And if the opinions of those interviewed aren't valid, what makes you think your solitary one would be?

I’m sorry, one opinion isn’t enough, come back when you’ve quantified more than 80 opinions

Is one opinion ok to talk about or not @logsonlogsoff?

Removing herself from Twitter was no doubt a pre-emptive move given the inevitable death and rape threats
Yes. I looked at the Google cache, and she seems to have been there on 20 Oct, with protected tweets. What an awful state of affairs.

the BBC response is just blabla - I don't have the time to go through the hundreds of answers here, but has the fact that the lesbian porn actress interviewed has sexually assaulted women been discussed? The many stories surfacing (including one apology from the woman herself) are horrifying.

Anyone doubting this exists should casts their minds back a few months at the hullabaloo that erupted over the Superstraight/gay/lesbian stuff.

Excellent post Charlie

Your point about Finn is a good one. . if the blue ticks vanished for a day and people actually read the article. . .

@logsonlogsoff

80 women surveyed - with a clear bias - out of how many lesbian/queer women in the UK? 80 out of half a million or so? Come on. This whole article, regardless of which side of the argument you sit on, is nothing more than an opinion piece dressed up as 'journalism' and news.

that's spot on. And I do wonder about the rigour of the BBC's process if they think this violation of their own guidance regarding polls should pass...

@WarriorN

Interesting distraction tactics going on to divert from the content of the piece

It's almost as if the comments that attract the most community response here are those directed at people who are commenting from a place of not reading the primary text/source(s).

Reading the article put me in mind of how difficult it was to complete Jessica Taylor's survey because of the memories it brought up and because I'd never reflected on my life experiences and exposure to violence in those terms.

I wonder how many women read the questions and found themselves in a position where they just couldn't complete it. Particularly if they're still dependent on those communities for their social support and networking.

It's important that the stories of those who could complete the questionnaire are told, heard, and acknowledged.

@CatherinaJTV

the BBC response is just blabla - I don't have the time to go through the hundreds of answers here, but has the fact that the lesbian porn actress interviewed has sexually assaulted women been discussed? The many stories surfacing (including one apology from the woman herself) are horrifying.

Start a thread, write an article on it. This is about a different set of incidents.

The question the article seeks to answer is not how often does this happen. It's does this happen at all?

And another question it's answering is "what will the response be to these reports being publicised"?

The response from Stonewall, and people like logsonlogsoff totally confirms what is being reported. To report this is to be deemed "transphobic", as was claimed. QED.

Indeed, the almost total lack of respect for the women in the piece is remarkable. The "this is transphobia" line is being held in total lock-step by "LGBTQ allies".

So this coercion is clearly widespread, and the norm.

that's spot on. And I do wonder about the rigour of the BBC's process if they think this violation of their own guidance regarding polls should pass...

That's just embarrassing parroting, Catherina.

There was no poll

Angela created a questionnaire for lesbians and distributed it via social media, then published the results.

She said that of the 80 women who did respond, 56% reported being pressured or coerced to accept a trans woman as a sexual partner.

While acknowledging the sample may not be representative of the wider lesbian community, she believes it was important to capture their "points of view and stories".

If that part of the article upsets you, pretend it's not there when you re-read.

You see, I read the story, and I was impressed with the rigour of it, including being totally upfront about the poll. (In many articles I've read on different subjects, poll results are used without any reference to numbers.)

So if you're going to attack the article, I really wouldn't go down the rigour route, as it's patently not true.

@CatherinaJTV

the BBC response is just blabla - I don't have the time to go through the hundreds of answers here, but has the fact that the lesbian porn actress interviewed has sexually assaulted women been discussed? The many stories surfacing (including one apology from the woman herself) are horrifying.

Divert! Divert! Quick, everyone, look at that thing over there!

Focus, Catherina. Do you agree that genital preferences are transphobic, as Stonewall do?