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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

BBC article about cotton ceiling

999 replies

GingerAndTheBiscuits · 26/10/2021 09:54

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385 including Angela Wild, Rose of Dawn and Debbie Hayton. There’s no way this would have been published even just a few months ago 🤯

OP posts:
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20
RedToothBrush · 27/10/2021 09:34

This has just randomly popped up on my radar.

getpocket.com/explore/item/micromanipulation-the-covert-tactic-that-narcissists-use-in-arguments-to-reassert-control?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB
Micromanipulation: The Covert Tactic That Narcissists Use in Arguments to Reassert Control
Here’s how to recognize its damaging effects.

It sounds strangely familiar.

OldCrone · 27/10/2021 09:36

The survey is kind of irrelevant in this particular article.

It is, but there's also a lot of hypocrisy coming from the transactivist direction about this questionnaire and the number of participants. They are perfectly happy to quote the results of this survey of 60 transgender people in 2013 as 'proof' of domestic abuse statistics in the trans community. They are also happy to quote an online survey of 27 young people as 'proof' of high rates of suicide in young trans people.

Datun · 27/10/2021 09:39

If the no debaters want to present their arguments in a different way to these sources, they need to start agreeing to be interviewed.

Exactly. The reason why Stonewall and Veronica Ivy wouldn't answer the question is because it was a lose/lose situation. If they disagree that lesbians should include transwomen, than they're invalidating their own identity. And if they agree with it, then they are endorsing the article (and telling everyone in the country that there's no such thing as sexual orientation).

No one, absolutely no one who supports transgenderism, will do it. They can't.

At the moment TRAs seem to be objecting to the suggestion that there is any coercion involved. But even agreeing the transwomen should be included in lesbians' dating pool will show up the homophobia.

They're stuffed.

Artichokeleaves · 27/10/2021 09:43

Nailed it, Datun

It's why all that comes out is 'talking about this is bad, it's fundamentally wrong to publish or discuss any of this'.

Datun · 27/10/2021 09:43

Perhaps journalists should start investigating the super straight/super gay movement. Which was an attempt to reset the category of sexual orientation to be based on sex.

The young man who invented it on TikTok, I believe, was hounded and his mother was threatened.

Let journalists take a look at that.

Bellendejour · 27/10/2021 09:47

Hello all, this has likely already been posted on here but just to bump to the front, here is the link to send positive feedback on the article to the BBC:

www.bbc.co.uk/contact/comments-feedback

And this is the online link to the original article you need to paste in to the form:

www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-57853385.amp

As we know, shameless TRA rape/assault deniers are flooding the BBC with complaints, so please flood them with praise for drawing attention to this issue.

It’s vital for women’s safety that this article remains up and the BBC continue to tell the true stories and experiences of women.

NotBadConsidering · 27/10/2021 09:53

@Datun

If the no debaters want to present their arguments in a different way to these sources, they need to start agreeing to be interviewed.

Exactly. The reason why Stonewall and Veronica Ivy wouldn't answer the question is because it was a lose/lose situation. If they disagree that lesbians should include transwomen, than they're invalidating their own identity. And if they agree with it, then they are endorsing the article (and telling everyone in the country that there's no such thing as sexual orientation).

No one, absolutely no one who supports transgenderism, will do it. They can't.

At the moment TRAs seem to be objecting to the suggestion that there is any coercion involved. But even agreeing the transwomen should be included in lesbians' dating pool will show up the homophobia.

They're stuffed.

Absolutely: they could say that yes, lesbians are women who are exclusively attracted to women, BUT if they say the definition of women includes males it endorses the article and if they say it women excludes males it totally undermines TWAW. Same for female; Ivy has form claiming to be female too Hmm.

It all ultimately comes down to the immovable position of TWAW. Stonewall is denying coercion of women because they don’t want to have to define woman without males.

lifeissweet · 27/10/2021 09:55

Women in the article: I feel extremely uncomfortable, but am unable to express my discomfort because I am called transphobic when I talk about it.

'Allies' on Twitter: TRANSPHOBIA! TRANSPHOBIA! Stop talking about this, transphobe.

Own goal.

CharlieParley · 27/10/2021 09:57

@logsonlogsoff

‘I do fear for the journalist who wrote the piece, she's had to close down her Twitter’

It’s a poor piece of journalism, maybe that’s whe she’s gone off SM for a while. That’s a big art like to write, and a lot to claim of the back of hearsay and a really dodgy ‘poll’.

It wasn't a poll. It's qualitative research done by the author in the context of a degree in women's study.

Here is what she says about the experience:

Writing about such a topic as part of my degree has been challenging: finding a supervisor prepared to work with me but also confronting my own self-censorship. We have all internalised patriarchy, we all know almost instinctively what we are allowed and not allowed to say when working within the structures of patriarchy. How would this pressure to conform influence the words I used, or affect the clarity of my analysis?

The challenge has been to confront potential attempts by the university itself to silence me or dilute my work. I was relieved that the Ethics Committee reviewing my application had approved it, allowing me to proceed with the project. Their insistence on my use of the term “transwoman” within the survey and on the importance of remaining “objective” and asking non-leading questions was problematic. In agreement with the feminist tradition, I do not consider that there is such a thing as “objectivity” or that “objectivity” is desirable, necessary or ethical in order to produce a valid piece of work (Stanley & Wise 1993). I reflect below on the response I had from a respondent about the use of the term “transwomen” within the survey, a point I wholeheartedly agree with. Overall I was grateful, though conflicted as I knew my politics were in direct confrontation with academia and yet I had no intention of toning them down.

On methodology she says:

The survey comprised of 30 questions about lesbians’ experience. It had sections relating to the following subjects: respondent identity, their experiences in LGBT groups and on lesbian dating sites, their experiences interacting with men who identify as transwomen as potential sexual partners. For the purpose of the survey, I used the queer terminology “transwomen” as advised by the Ethics Committee. The Ethics Committee believed that the survey should be “objective” but did not consider that the term “transwomen” is not an objective term and is far less widely accepted than they claimed, a point noted by a respondent who complained that the term was incorrect and misleading as “transwomen” are biologically male, therefore “not a subset of women”.

The survey was sent to women-only and lesbian-only groups on social media, as well as to individual lesbians in my own networks. As such the sample does not claim to be a representative sample of the lesbian community. However, the research was to capture the points of view and stories of many, until now, silenced lesbians. [emphasis in the original]

Let me repeat: The purpose of this study was to capture the voices of lesbians who have previously been silenced. It was not to quantify how common their experience is.

This is a standard approach in many fields in social sciences: first capture an issue via qualitative research, then find out how prevalent the issue is in quantitative research, then back to qualitative research for possible solutions. And so on.

Not every topic uses all of those methods, and often qualitative and quantitative studies are carried out by different researchers, but to dismiss these findings because they arise from a piece of qualitative instead of quantitative research betrays your ignorance of how research works in this field.

(This is not her Master's thesis btw, Angela did that on a different subject.)

You'll find the report here: www.gettheloutuk.com/attachments/lesbiansatgroundzero.pdf

It's only 16 pages. Might be worth reading before commenting again?

MorrisZapp · 27/10/2021 09:59

@Datun

If the no debaters want to present their arguments in a different way to these sources, they need to start agreeing to be interviewed.

Exactly. The reason why Stonewall and Veronica Ivy wouldn't answer the question is because it was a lose/lose situation. If they disagree that lesbians should include transwomen, than they're invalidating their own identity. And if they agree with it, then they are endorsing the article (and telling everyone in the country that there's no such thing as sexual orientation).

No one, absolutely no one who supports transgenderism, will do it. They can't.

At the moment TRAs seem to be objecting to the suggestion that there is any coercion involved. But even agreeing the transwomen should be included in lesbians' dating pool will show up the homophobia.

They're stuffed.

Nailed it
logsonlogsoff · 27/10/2021 10:00

80 women surveyed - with a clear bias - out of how many lesbian/queer women in the UK? 80 out of half a million or so? Come on. This whole article, regardless of which side of the argument you sit on, is nothing more than an opinion piece dressed up as 'journalism' and news.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 27/10/2021 10:03

For fucks sake @logsonlogsoff, you’re still going with ‘more women need to be raped before I care’?

Jesus

IvyTwines2 · 27/10/2021 10:03

@EsmaCannonball

Was it The Guardian who published the exposé of Noel Clarke's sexual harassment of women, based on several anonymous interviews? I don't recall Owen Jones and Ash Sarkar, et al, claiming that wasn't rigorous enough evidence or purely anecdotal. As with grooming gangs, Loudoun County schools or the IRA, women are expected to stay quiet about rape and abuse because the reputations of certain groups of men are seen as more important. It's the totalitarian tactic of putting ideology before people.
"Marge, I would appreciate it if you didn't tell anyone about my busy hands. Not so much for myself, but I am so respected, it would damage the town to hear it."
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/10/2021 10:04

@logsonlogsoff

80 women surveyed - with a clear bias - out of how many lesbian/queer women in the UK? 80 out of half a million or so? Come on. This whole article, regardless of which side of the argument you sit on, is nothing more than an opinion piece dressed up as 'journalism' and news.
I'll quote CharlieParley here

Let me repeat: The purpose of this study was to capture the voices of lesbians who have previously been silenced. It was not to quantify how common their experience is.

This is a standard approach in many fields in social sciences: first capture an issue via qualitative research, then find out how prevalent the issue is in quantitative research, then back to qualitative research for possible solutions. And so on.

PronounssheRa · 27/10/2021 10:05

What about the personal accounts from the women in the article, do you just ignore them? How many lesbians need to be coerced into sex and raped before you think this is worthy of addressing.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/10/2021 10:05

I think every woman matters.

I want a society in which no-one is raped.

Is that so controversial?

prudencepuffin · 27/10/2021 10:06

Logson - I think its already been pointed out at least twice that claims based on much lower numbers have been made in the cause of genderism. About bloody time we had a bit of balance and heard about some of the women involved dont you think.

logsonlogsoff · 27/10/2021 10:08

Still, she's gone from journo no-one's ever heard of to being a headline everywhere which I would imagine was her intention in the first place.

Datun · 27/10/2021 10:08

@logsonlogsoff

80 women surveyed - with a clear bias - out of how many lesbian/queer women in the UK? 80 out of half a million or so? Come on. This whole article, regardless of which side of the argument you sit on, is nothing more than an opinion piece dressed up as 'journalism' and news.
Gosh, I don't understand how to do surveys and statistics, but even I can grasp what CharlieParley is saying about the difference in qualitative and quantitative studies.

🙄

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 27/10/2021 10:09

@logsonlogsoff

80 women surveyed - with a clear bias - out of how many lesbian/queer women in the UK? 80 out of half a million or so? Come on. This whole article, regardless of which side of the argument you sit on, is nothing more than an opinion piece dressed up as 'journalism' and news.
Yet another poster who apparently knows nothing about qualitative research.
EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 27/10/2021 10:09

Might be worth reading before commenting again?

There is a discussion both here and on the Atwood thread about why people who are in closed communities that are engaged in thought reform do not wish to read primary sources that might challenge their views or they are deterred from reading them ("I read it so you don't have to").

People in those communities are encouraged to dispense pre-dispensed views from their thought leaders in the form of thought terminating clichés and stock answers, they are never to allow themselves to enter into a discussion that is based on a primary text that lies outside their own set of preferred beliefs. The penalty for going against the expectation of their community is a withdrawal of social support, a social network, and ostracism that can have far reaching consequences. The pile-ons to Margaret Atwood et al are to keep them in line.

People who won't read the primary sources because of the challenge to their thinking will probably, at some point, experience cognitive dissonance about their reluctance to perform such a simple and everyday action. And then they might find themselves in the situations described here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4382551-Live-not-by-lies-Solzhenitsyn-no-tambourines-involved?

ArabellaScott · 27/10/2021 10:09

@logsonlogsoff

80 women surveyed - with a clear bias - out of how many lesbian/queer women in the UK? 80 out of half a million or so? Come on. This whole article, regardless of which side of the argument you sit on, is nothing more than an opinion piece dressed up as 'journalism' and news.
So, as long as only a few lesbians experience rape or coercion, that is fine with you? Thanks for clarifying.

These particular women quoted in the piece don't matter. It's good to know where you stand.

This is not an 'opinion' piece, this is an article that was carefully researched, and includes first person accounts and references to a wide range of sources.

You seem to lack a very basic grasp of logic.

Whatstheweatherlike · 27/10/2021 10:09

It’s a poor piece of journalism, maybe that’s whe she’s gone off SM for a while. That’s a big art like to write, and a lot to claim of the back of hearsay and a really dodgy ‘poll’.

Removing herself from Twitter was no doubt a pre-emptive move given the inevitable death and rape threats. It only takes a 5 minute Google to find the sort of abuse levelled at anyone who speaks about issues within gender ideology. I would imagine that the BBC published this fully aware that their journalist will need considerable protection.

As despicable as I find some of the responses (not to mention the clear lack of critical thinking), it's actually useful in a way to show to a much wider audience the sort of behaviour that TRAs exhibit. Yesterday I felt sick reading OJ's reference to women's accounts of rape and sexual coercion as 'testimonials from anti-trans activists'. Just this morning I've seen Ash Sarker tell a heterosexual man to 'cut his bits off'. It's so important to remember that this behaviour is all in response to some lesbians describing their sexual orientation as same-sex attraction and the challenges they have faced. I have never been more convinced about the importance of the LGB Alliance, so thank you Ash, OJ and all the others trying to deflect from the real issue. It simply means more people are seeing the situation for what it is.

ArabellaScott · 27/10/2021 10:10

@logsonlogsoff

Still, she's gone from journo no-one's ever heard of to being a headline everywhere which I would imagine was her intention in the first place.
This is what we call an 'ad hom' attack. If you can't criticise the content, attack the person.
bordersroaming · 27/10/2021 10:11

You dismiss an article on rape because it's individual stories and a small scale survey ?