Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

BBC article about cotton ceiling

999 replies

GingerAndTheBiscuits · 26/10/2021 09:54

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385 including Angela Wild, Rose of Dawn and Debbie Hayton. There’s no way this would have been published even just a few months ago 🤯

OP posts:
Thread gallery
20
DadDadDad · 26/10/2021 14:25

While I was typing my post, I now see @CharlieParley has said it more succintly!

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 26/10/2021 14:25

They would never expect a gay man to have sex with a woman and call them discriminatory if they didn't.

There is a phenomenon known as the boxer ceiling (different power dynamics):

www.lipstickalley.com/threads/gay-men-aint-safe-anymore-say-hello-to-the-boxer-ceiling.4514993/

OvaHere · 26/10/2021 14:26

@CompleteGinasaur

"societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions". Nancy Kelley/Stonewall.

"rape victims must reframe your trauma". Mridul Wadhwa/Edinburgh Rape Crisis.

"strategizing ways to overcome the Cotton Ceiling". M- P---, unnamed Stonewall employee/Toronto Planned Parenthood workshop.

We are paying these people, through government grants, to teach rapists how to perfect their game and justify their crimes.

Remember this from a few years ago? Same energy.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/nov/05/pickup-artists-teaching-men-approach-women-industry-street-harassment

From the article

Earlier this month, pickup artist Adnan Ahmed – who called himself “Addy A-Game” – was jailed for two years after being convicted of threatening and abusive behaviour. Ahmed would harass women on the streets of Glasgow, causing them distress, and offered tips on his YouTube channel on how to overcome “last-minute resistance to sex”.

CrumpetShaw · 26/10/2021 14:26

Excellent that BBC have put this article out 🙂... Feels like the bias towards gender ideology might be slowly changing. Or at least the fear of saying anything that contradicts it. Still, noone is allowed to say the elephant in the room are they : the reason it's "OK" to discriminate against this particular group (transwomen) for lesbians, in terms of sexual attraction, is BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT WOMEN. FFS!! How have we got so far that noone can publicly say this very obvious fact? We've all known that it's unsayable for years now and still it blows my mind 😤 It is not hate to speak the truth.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 26/10/2021 14:26

@BigHeartyTruffle

I am sure I’ll get flamed for this but here goes.

Of course no one should feel pressured into having sex with anyone they don’t want to, no matter what the reason, and any comments to the contrary are intolerable.

HOWEVER - the article uses statistics based on a survey of 80 people done via this woman’s own social media site. Two major statistical flaws here - too small a pool, and strong selection bias.

Regardless of what side of the fence you are on, it is essential we don’t let a good headline get in the way of accuracy and rigour. This is not to deny the anecdotal evidence provided, and it is very distressing to hear of what these women have experienced.

Yes. It's a survey. Resondents are self selecting. There wil be bias of all sorts running through this. However taken it in context
  • Stonewall et al has said publicly that this does not happen
  • many women have said the same, often anonymously, all over social media

Now, readers get to make their own minds up. How many of those women have to be telling the truth for them to believe that it is happening to some lesbians across the UK?

Sometimes a good headline is what kickstarts the drive for better data and, as the limitations of the survery were quite well laid out, including it not being proper research, more back of a fag packet stuff. Nothing was measured, so there can have been no accuracy. No research design, so no rigour. It was just a question "Hey lesbians. Have any of you had this happen to you?" and the answer was - yes!

Sometimes it is the real choices of the few that startle people into hearing the message.

Given all of that I am not sure why you thought it best to post a 'bad science' warning. Not flaming, just puzzled.

NecessaryScene · 26/10/2021 14:29

I don't really understand why people wouldn't believe lesbians are being pressurised into having sex with men.

And in an environment where Stonewall themselves would shame such a lesbian for saying no.

It's just so far-fetched! Hmm

Tanith · 26/10/2021 14:31

"I see LOJ is going bonkers on Twitter again. Should someone take one for the team and ask him about how many transmen he's been in relationships with. Because his preference for dick is clearly transphobic."

Odd, isn't it?
I'm quite sure I saw LOJ saying he would not be attracted to a transman and it was homophobic to question him on this. Maybe I imagined that exchange, because it's completely at odds with what he's saying today.

bordersroaming · 26/10/2021 14:32

If you state , as they did , it's small sample , self selecting then it's not bad science unless there is large scale evidence already available

We are talking in many of those cases about rape

Self selecting anonymous reports are one of the most reliable ways to understand rape in society

We are talking rape. Actually happened. Not thoughts of rape. One is one too many

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 26/10/2021 14:32

It's the very far fetchedness that allowed some to say iot never happened.

Just more hysterical women hell bent on hating men!

Oh, wait! No. Not men. Erm. What was that? SQUIRREL?!?!?!

Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 26/10/2021 14:35

This is like WiSpa all over again isn't it? Women being accused of lying and hoaxing about the very thing that TRAs have actually been campaigning for?

The reaction on Twitter now is that of course no transwoman would ever suggest that a lesbian not wanting to have sex with them makes them transphobic. Of course genitals preferences are not transphobic. This must be a hoax, women are lying to make transwomen look bad etc.

All this whilst conveniently ignoring the fact that Stonewall and Rachel McKinnon are in the very same article saying the exact thing that is being denied!

Either it's so ridiculous to suggest that having a sexual orientation based on sex is transphobic, that women have to make up that it actually ever even happens......Or having a sexual orientation based on sex is transphobic (as per Stonewall's statement) in which case lesbians are highly likely to have been 'pulled up' on it, and so they are not lying?

Vanishun · 26/10/2021 14:35

If it never ever happens then why aren't they just shrugging and condemning the people who've done it?

No.

They know what they've been doing and facilitating as a big group.

And now they've been called out on it by an authority so they're tantrumming.

Sadly I wonder what the backlash punishment will be?

ArabellaScott · 26/10/2021 14:36

"Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions."

Nancy, if only you'd stopped after the first sentence.

Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But...

IvyTwines2 · 26/10/2021 14:36

Have you seen how Twitter is framing it in its headline/trending bar? No misogynistic bias there, no, not at all.

BBC article about cotton ceiling
OvaHere · 26/10/2021 14:36

@Tanith

"I see LOJ is going bonkers on Twitter again. Should someone take one for the team and ask him about how many transmen he's been in relationships with. Because his preference for dick is clearly transphobic."

Odd, isn't it?
I'm quite sure I saw LOJ saying he would not be attracted to a transman and it was homophobic to question him on this. Maybe I imagined that exchange, because it's completely at odds with what he's saying today.

Tbh it's not that odd because men are generally allowed to state boundaries without any/much resistance.

There's a reason the TWAW crowd are not for the most part targeting straight men with re-education.

Men are also pretty good at cognitive dissonance whereby they can believe women are bigots for asserting boundaries whilst holding their own firmly.

Remember dear old Robin from twitter? " I believe TWAW except for dating purposes". I'm sure someone still has the screenshot. Grin

ArabellaScott · 26/10/2021 14:36

'dating' is a coy euphemism for sex, really, isn't it? Which makes that quote even more outrageous.

FindTheTruth · 26/10/2021 14:37

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 26/10/2021 14:38

I don't really understand why people wouldn't believe lesbians are being pressurised into having sex with men.

Yes, I thought this as well? Why is it so unbelievable, we all know what males are like?

Or is it that some males are in the sacred caste where they would never do such a thing and how dare anyone ever suggest it?

Gmom · 26/10/2021 14:39

I knew Stonewall were on the wrong side of this issue (which is mind blowing since Stonewall should be championing the freedom to love and be physically intimate with whoever you like and without anyone else decreeing what is normal or acceptable).

I'm shocked that the "cotton ceiling" workshop was run by Planned Parenthood in Toronto. There goes my support for Planned Parenthood. I've supported them in the past in the face of right wing conservative politicians attacking them. Framing a woman's unwillingness to be penetrated by a penis as a "cotton ceiling" is pure misogyny.

FindTheTruth · 26/10/2021 14:39

More on the Stonewall 'unnamed person' mentioned in the BBC article, can be found here

WinterTrees · 26/10/2021 14:40

@IvyTwines2

Have you seen how Twitter is framing it in its headline/trending bar? No misogynistic bias there, no, not at all.
I came back to post the same thing.

They can't stop the avalanche of tweets supporting lesbians, calling out Stonewall and exposing the likes of OJ and Sarkar as hypocrites and homophobes, but they CAN discredit and re-frame it as unfounded transphobia

AlfonsoTheUnrepetant · 26/10/2021 14:41

That was such a great article! I never expected to see anything like that from the BBC. I love the photographs of the TRAs and their various tweets and comments. I think the activitists in the article have just dug themselves a social media grave.

I emphasise "social media" because I do not want anyone to think that I am referring to an actual grave or that I am advocating violence against anyone because of their views.

OvaHere · 26/10/2021 14:41

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet

I don't really understand why people wouldn't believe lesbians are being pressurised into having sex with men.

Yes, I thought this as well? Why is it so unbelievable, we all know what males are like?

Or is it that some males are in the sacred caste where they would never do such a thing and how dare anyone ever suggest it?

Ha Ha I'm a [male] lesbian used to be a sad, creepy joke for decades. I remember in the 90s men wearing t-shirts saying 'Nobody knows I'm a Lesbian'.
ArabellaScott · 26/10/2021 14:42

Stonewall should be championing the freedom to love and be physically intimate with whoever you like

Sorry, I'm a pedant about these things: the word/concept of consent has to be included in that sentence somewhere.

whatwasIgoingtosay · 26/10/2021 14:42

I have sent feedback to the BBC thanking them for publishing this, etc. Please do the same, everyone. They reckon that one piece of feedback represents the views of about 100 others, so if we all write in it will be seen as massive vindication and encouragement. Here's the link again (and thanks to others who have posted it): www.bbc.co.uk/contact/comments-feedback/#/review

ArabellaScott · 26/10/2021 14:42

@IvyTwines2

Have you seen how Twitter is framing it in its headline/trending bar? No misogynistic bias there, no, not at all.
Twitter can do its worst. The more people read this, the more sunlight the issue gets, the more women's voices will be heard.