For the Attention of Posters in the "bloody terf" thread

[PurgatoryOfPotholes]

So we can stop disrupting the OP's thread, and continue the discussion here.

@PickAChew

That's weird, because as far I can tell, the segregation is a product of patriarchal gender norms, and the notion that women are fragile delicate flowers in need of constant sheltering from the brutal society is a part of those gender norms.

Wanting to be safe from sexual assault, rape and male violence - actual violence, not literal violence - does not make a woman a "delicate flower".

It does to those who fetishise being a target of said sexual violence (they call it being lucky though).

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet

A woman, cis or trans, can live and present however she wants. There is no requirement to be feminine, nor does anyone presenting feminine need to be a woman.

I agree that anyone can present how they want.

But on what basis is a male who says he feels like a woman actually a woman? How does that work exactly?

Because she chooses to identify that way, and there's no reason why you should be able to dictate her life and identity. Simple as that.

Sex itself is a sum of physical characteristics that fall on a bimodal spectrum. Many of these characteristics can be altered, and the process of doing so alters one's sex. To chalk this up to "two sexes" is a gross oversimplification.

You think that humans can change sex?

You do realise that Sir Robert Winston would disagree with you?

You cannot change sex, seriously.

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet

What about women that, for one reason or another do not produce eggs?

They are still of the sex class that produce eggs. As per the dictionary definition of female.

This really isn't that difficult.

But you defined the sex class by the ability to produce eggs? If producing eggs isn't what defines the sex class, what is it? What is a sex class?

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet

Sex itself is a sum of physical characteristics that fall on a bimodal spectrum. Many of these characteristics can be altered, and the process of doing so alters one's sex. To chalk this up to "two sexes" is a gross oversimplification.

You think that humans can change sex?

You do realise that Sir Robert Winston would disagree with you?

You cannot change sex, seriously.

You absolutely can. We can't change chromosomes, but the physical changes caused by hormones are absolutely a component of biological sex. And our bodies can be changed with hormones.

Because she chooses to identify that way, and there's no reason why you should be able to dictate her life and identity. Simple as that.

Womanhood is not an identity, and it is grossly offensive to assert that when you think about all the women over millenia who have been oppressed solely because of their biological sex who would have done anything to be able to 'identify' out of that oppression.

Womanhood is not something you can merely identify into and out of, its not a costume or identity.

extract

Catheters are commonly used in acute care, in patients’ own homes, in social care and in nursing homes. They are manufactured in a range of different gauges and three lengths: female length (20-26cm), standard length (40-45cm) and paediatric (30-31cm).

The gender difference in urethral lengths means that, should the shorter female length catheter be used in males, the inflation of the balloon with water occurs within the male urethra rather than the bladder. This can cause severe urethral trauma and result in pain and haemorrhage, or longer term effects such as urethral strictures, retention or incontinence.

Clinical practice differs between healthcare settings. Some areas will stock only standard length catheters and use different gauges for male and female patients. In other areas, the use of shorter female length catheters, which have no clinical imperative, are used for patient dignity issues such as concealing catheters under skirts.

Between January 2006 and March 2009, the National Patient Safety Agency received 114 reports of serious harm from errors where shorter female catheters had been inserted in males. The result was a range of serious outcomes for the patients, including cases of acute renal failure or impaired renal function. Some patients required additional medical or surgical procedures to correct thetrauma.

Continues www.nursingtimes.net/clinical-archive/continence/female-catheters-cause-trauma-in-males-31-05-2010/

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet

I'm sure even the broad usage of "male" and "female" for strictly medical contexts wouldn't be much of issue, were you not so insistent on attaching other labels by proxy.

So you agree that transwomen are not female then? In which case they must be male? And you understand that therefore they are in the sex class of which 98% perpetuate sexual crime?

Do you understand that the word 'woman' is the word in the English language that is used to refer to an adult human female. In the same way that 'mare' is used for adult horse female, and 'ewe' is used for adult sheep female? If we are not going to use 'woman' for adult human female, then how will we distinguish female humans from female horses for example?

See, this kind of loaded, prejudiced garbage is precisely why trans women resist allowing you to apply any masculine labels on them.

To chalk this up to "two sexes" is a gross oversimplification

what gametes do the other sexes produce etc etc

this person is such a loon i'm not sure i can be arsed really

can we talk about aliens again?

Seeing as according to extreme genderists, labelling people man/woman based on sex is "socially constructed" therefore irrelevant, and gender is what really really matters above all else.

Do genderists believe there should be any separation wrt the sexes, ever?

That all spaces be it sports, prisons, changing rooms etc should all be mixed sex?

Have I got this right?

So, @SillyStrings423, is a man with a hormone imbalance and resulting gynecomastia who has also been unlucky enough to lose a testicle to cancer less male than a man who doesn't suffer from those issues?

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet
"Womanhood is not an identity"

That's funny, considering you build your entire online identities around how special and exclusive your womanhood is.

If I dye myself blue, does that turn me into a smurf?

But you defined the sex class by the ability to produce eggs? If producing eggs isn't what defines the sex class, what is it? What is a sex class?

There are two sexes. XX which is the sex class which produces large gametes (ova) and XY which is the sex class which produces small gametes (sperm). Everyone is in one of these two sex classes, whether or not they as an indiviudal produce those gametes or not.
There are also some people with DSDs, who also all fall into one of the two sex classes, despite their DSDs. There is no 'third sex'.

One sex class commits crime and oppression against the other sex class at a highly disproportionate rate.

What has any of this got to do with males who 'feel like women' though?

what gametes do the other sexes produce etc etc

Time for this again!

@AssassinatedBeauty

So, *@SillyStrings423*, is a man with a hormone imbalance and resulting gynecomastia who has also been unlucky enough to lose a testicle to cancer less male than a man who doesn't suffer from those issues?

Sounds like you make a whole lot of baseless assumptions here.

[quote SillyStrings423]@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet
"Womanhood is not an identity"

That's funny, considering you build your entire online identities around how special and exclusive your womanhood is.[/quote]
Can you please tell me what man means as a social category?

Sex itself is a sum of physical characteristics that fall on a bimodal spectrum. Many of these characteristics can be altered, and the process of doing so alters one's sex. To chalk this up to "two sexes" is a gross oversimplification.

So in answer PickAChew people like us who are post-menopausal have now moved along the sex spectrum. Acording to Genderism we are now ex women or post women or formely women.

Personally I always quite fancied being a postwoman I like walking and wearing shorts, but not sure about dogs I don't know.

Being an X Woman would be fun, I wouldn't mind developing a super power, much more fun that hot flushes, brain fog and being constantly pissed off.

@Livelifeinthebuslane

what gametes do the other sexes produce etc etc

Time for this again!

So, a person who produces neither gamete is officially sexless, neither a man nor a woman.

See, this kind of loaded, prejudiced garbage is precisely why trans women resist allowing you to apply any masculine labels on them

It doesn't really matter if TW want to resist masculine "labels" because at the end of the day you can't dodge the truth 🤷🏻‍♀️

You absolutely can. We can't change chromosomes, but the physical changes caused by hormones are absolutely a component of biological sex. And our bodies can be changed with hormones.

So you disagree with one of the most knowledgeable people in the UK on issues of human biology and reproduction?

What are your credentials exactly and how do they compare with Sir Robert Winston?

And can you expand further on how humans can change sex?

[quote SillyStrings423]@Blibbyblobby
"These segregated spaces exist because of male behaviour. They are not the result of a random whimsical social decision back in the day to separate females from males, they were created specifically in response to male violence and encroachment on female people."

That's weird, because as far I can tell, the segregation is a product of patriarchal gender norms, and the notion that women are fragile delicate flowers in need of constant sheltering from the brutal society is a part of those gender norms.

That's actually part of the reason why for a long time women were expected not to leave home without a male escort.[/quote]
Yes. And those norms still exist and are still a threat to female people.

Not because female people are emotionally fragile flowers (although we are physically weaker on average than male people and therefore at risk of being overpowered should a male decide he wants to...again not saying that is right, just that it is true), but because too many male people feel entitled to our time, our mental attention, our admiration, and far too often, our actual bodies. Some males fetishise our privacy to the degree that just infiltrating it is thrilling for them.

I am not saying these norms are good or desireable. I am simply saying that here and now they exist. So while as a feminist I may want to work towards a world where sex specific protection for female people isn't needed, here and now it is.

So sort those male problems out, take the threat away, and then we can talk about what spaces female people may or may not need.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes
"Can you please tell me what man means as a social category?"

What do you mean "what it means"?

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet

Both "man" and "woman" are social and cultural identities, originally constructed around biological sex.

What do you mean?

What is your definition of a woman? It's a fairly easy question.

I think @SillyStrings423

believes woman =social and cultural concept

and man= social and cultural concept

Which begs the question how can sex discrimination be proven? How can a woman prove someone is discriminating against her social and cultural concept if the person doing the discriminating can’t tell her social and cultural concept apart from the cultural and social concept of another person? How can the accuser be sure that the person accused of the discrimination would not treat all people equally no matter their social and cultural concept. It all just becomes conceptual don’t you think?

I don't like reading stuff like this, People have so many ridiculous issues about so many things these days, it's no wonder people get very unsettled and agitated about life now.