For the Attention of Posters in the "bloody terf" thread

[PurgatoryOfPotholes]

So we can stop disrupting the OP's thread, and continue the discussion here.

You're making a false assumption that it's about "stereotypes" or "expectations", when it simply is not.

Aside from names and pronouns, what does being a woman actually mean? How would one know?

You can't blame people for guessing and making assumptions when they're struggling to understand gender identity and are simply told "it's not this" and "it's not that".

@PurgatoryOfPotholes
So, you're saying that this trapping consists of using sex-based pronouns?

Pretty much. To insist to use masculine pronouns to refer to trans women is to forcefully shove them into the "male" box against their will, a box they made an extensive effort to leave.

I don't care how much space you think there is inside the box, stop pushing people into boxes they don't want to be in.

@LonginesPrime

You're making a false assumption that it's about "stereotypes" or "expectations", when it simply is not.

Aside from names and pronouns, what does being a woman actually mean? How would one know?

You can't blame people for guessing and making assumptions when they're struggling to understand gender identity and are simply told "it's not this" and "it's not that".

Why do you assume there must be a single universal way to be a woman?

To insist to use masculine pronouns to refer to trans women is to forcefully shove them into the "male" box against their will, a box they made an extensive effort to leave.

what's in the 'male' box that they don't like? why did you need to leave it?

There are post-GRS trans women that you wouldn't be able to tell are "male" even if you had then stripped naked

I don't believe this, you can't change a person's size nor the shape and positioning of their pelvis and legs. Women can distinguish sex much better than many TW would like to think before the observation even reaches our conscious thought.

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet

What defines which "sex class" someone belongs to? Since we already established it's not the gametes.

Well, for millenia, no one had any fucking problem identifying who belonged to which sex class. You know, when they were deciding who to deny an abortion to, who to deny the vote to, an eduction to, who to murder at birth, who to rape as a weapon of war, who to 'make redundant' when they were pregnant, who to deny a promotion to, who to be able to lawfully rape as long as you married until the 1990s.......

But now, now its just oh so fucking difficult to identify who is which sex class?

Please.

It's just insulting.

Seeing as it’s so incredibly complicated to identify the sex class a person belongs to let’s start a petition to get every person a dog to crotch sniff every person we encounter and alert us humans with our expanded minds and identities which ones belong to the class that poses a risk of actual violence to the other class.

We’d be wading through much less dog shit than we are currently.

[quote SillyStrings423]@Blibbyblobby
"But it's the Gender Critical position that is genuinely progressive."

Do you seriously not wonder why it's being backed by people like Boris Johnson, Matt Walsh, or Andy Ngo? Why the entirety of the reactionary right-wing movement seems to be backing the GC view on trans issues?[/quote]
I've actually dealt with this in more detail on recent threads so I won't write (yet another ;) ) epic... but briefly:

I don't think they do back the Gender Critical position.

We are temporarily and superficially aligned because we both agree that the Genderist demand to undefine sex as a legitimate differentiator in law, society, sports etc is a bad idea.

But the reasons why we think it's bad, and what society should be doing instead, are totally different.

Right now there is a concerted attempt to undefine female people in law, remove us from data gathering and prevent us from forming political or social groups to share our experiences and agitate for our own political voice and needs.

If that succeeds, it's game over for the social progress in Female empowerment that has been advancing slowly but progressively since Wollstonecraft. It won't stop us forever but it WILL force feminism - real feminism - underground until we can gain enough momentum again to re-emerge and fight.

This threat to female rights and voices is so existential that I, and women like me, are glad of any support that disrupts the Genderist narrative right now. Our house on fire so that is the problem we have to tackle right now. But I have no illusion that once this crisis is past we will be on the same side.

But here is a question for you. If two groups, who disagree on almost everything else, agree that you are wrong, is it not just possible you are, in fact, wrong?

Fuck I should learn how to identify a coma

Comma

[quote SillyStrings423]@PurgatoryOfPotholes
So, you're saying that this trapping consists of using sex-based pronouns?

Pretty much. To insist to use masculine pronouns to refer to trans women is to forcefully shove them into the "male" box against their will, a box they made an extensive effort to leave.

I don't care how much space you think there is inside the box, stop pushing people into boxes they don't want to be in.[/quote]
That goes both ways. Don't push females into the box where they're expected to be cool with males, whatever their sense of identity, in their private spaces.

[quote SillyStrings423]@PurgatoryOfPotholes
So, you're saying that this trapping consists of using sex-based pronouns?

Pretty much. To insist to use masculine pronouns to refer to trans women is to forcefully shove them into the "male" box against their will, a box they made an extensive effort to leave.

I don't care how much space you think there is inside the box, stop pushing people into boxes they don't want to be in.[/quote]
Given what you have said, then there can be no such thing as a trans woman in cultures where they do not have sex-based pronouns or grammatical gender then. So that is quite a few places? thesocietypages.org/socimages/2014/10/11/map-of-the-week-57-of-languages-do-not-have-gendered-pronouns/

This is not something I previously believed; I am simply trying to understand your point of view.

Because she chooses to identify that way, and there's no reason why you should be able to dictate her life and identity. Simple as that.

So as I asked on the other thread, why doesn't this apply to people who want to freely self-identify their race, age, species, disability etc?

You try to make it sound morally superior and wonderfully liberal that you don't want to restrict trans people's "identity" or dictate to them. But it's not dictating to point out if someone's identity or view of them themselves doesn't match material reality, or to not want to sanction it and let them live "as" that identity if it causes a problem for others and clashes with their rights.

So, generally we don't let adult men identify as 5-year-olds and go to primary school, let 30-year-olds identify as 70 and claim a pension, or let an able bodied person identify as paraplegic and claim DLA, or agree that Rachel Dolezal is black because she imitated black appearance, because that's really offensive.

So either you think that's all wrong and people should be affirmed in these identities because it's bad to restrict people's identity. Or you don't. and that means you do understand the need for restriction and the fact that the material reality of the body overrides feelings.

If the latter, why is "gender" the only one that must be taken seriously?
Could you answer this please SillyStrings?

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

To insist to use masculine pronouns to refer to trans women is to forcefully shove them into the "male" box against their will, a box they made an extensive effort to leave.

what's in the 'male' box that they don't like? why did you need to leave it?

They weren't comfortable with it, simple as. Why do you feel the need to force them back in? Why do you seem to think that being put into that box at birth somehow creates an obligation to stay inside?

They weren't comfortable with it, simple as. Why do you feel the need to force them back in?

hang on, I'm not the one trying to get anyone to do anything. you want me to pretend I can't tell what sex people are - you want me to be kind.

explain to me why then? what was in the 'male' box that made it imperative to leave?

what was in the 'female' box that made it imperative to be there instead?

@PickAChew
Sure, when it comes to private spaces, you can choose who else is accompanying you.

In public spaces, however, that's where you don't really get to pick and choose. There were plenty people who felt uncomfortable with people who looked different using the same bathroom, and they eventually had to just get over it.

@TheWeeDonkey

Thats good to know *@BloodinGutters*. Does your dogs understanding of humanity have anything to do with sausages?

No, but it has a lot to do with tuna steak, rib eye steak, watermelon sliced and hand fed, and a disproportionate amount of love.

So to be fair I think he would do a great job of explaining humanity to humans.

But he does still like to crotch sniff though.

He also refuses to slow down to human paced behaviour despite his trans identity and right to use human beds.

So retains some dog like behaviours which mean he has to tolerate going poop in the garden because identifying as a human in no way entitles him to access to the humans toilet.

*"But it's the Gender Critical position that is genuinely progressive."

Do you seriously not wonder why it's being backed by people like Boris Johnson, Matt Walsh, or Andy Ngo? Why the entirety of the reactionary right-wing movement seems to be backing the GC view on trans issues?*

That argument is just silly. BJ also thinks the world is round and that people should get covid vaccinations. We can’t just say something is wrong because the reactionary right-wing movement believes it.

*"These segregated spaces exist because of male behaviour. They are not the result of a random whimsical social decision back in the day to separate females from males, they were created specifically in response to male violence and encroachment on female people."

That's weird, because as far I can tell, the segregation is a product of patriarchal gender norms, and the notion that women are fragile delicate flowers in need of constant sheltering from the brutal society is a part of those gender norms.

That's actually part of the reason why for a long time women were expected not to leave home without a male escort.*

You honestly think that we have women’s and men’s sports because women are seen as delicate flowers? You honestly think there is no other reason why women don’t want to share changing rooms and toilets and prison cells? You think this is why women want attention to their specific needs in healthcare and recording of female deaths in car accidents (which are greater than men’s as crash test dummies are male bodied). I can’t believe anyone would be that obtuse.

*"Genderists would say their discomfort is because the child was "assigned" the wrong gender (B) based on an incorrect link between sex and gender (A) and (B)"

Do you think a trans woman's desire to be physiologically female is a matter of "stereotypes"? Do you think it's a matter of "stereotypes" to make relevant changes to one's body?

You're making a false assumption that it's about "stereotypes" or "expectations", when it simply is not.*

I think GC feminists have been asking for a definition of ‘woman’ for years. If you chose, unlike all the other trans lobbyists, to define woman, then perhaps we could understand your point here?

A woman, cis or trans, can live and present however she wants. There is no requirement to be feminine, nor does anyone presenting feminine need to be a woman.

You have not mentioned the vast majority of women who, by nature of having no gender identity are nether cis nor trans, but I will assume you mean those women too.

*A man, cis or trans, can live and present however she wants. There is no requirement to be masculine, nor does anyone presenting masculine need to be a man.

A non-binary person, can live and present however they want. There is no requirement to be androgynous, nor does anyone presenting androgynous need to be non-binary.

But they can be.*
This is what gc people believe.
*That is what the "genderist" view is. We keep trying to tell you. There doesn't need to be a "link" between presentation and identity.
There is no such obligation.

You may think that's "similar" to what you believe, but it is not. Because unlike me and other trans people and allies, you believe in restricting and policing other people's identities. We do not.*

You’ve just called me cis and you think it is me who is policing other people’s identities?! That’s shockingly rude! You are not understanding the very basics of the GC argument. People are free to identify however they chose. Spaces, however, are sex-segregated not identity segregated so wanting to keep them segregated cannot sensibly be seen as an attack on people’s identities. I have shared bathrooms with all sorts of people – those who are religious, those who voted for Brexit, those who are pro corporal punishment or the death penalty. All of those people had different identities to me but I’m still happy to share a ladies loo with them.

Sex itself is a sum of physical characteristics that fall on a bimodal spectrum. Many of these characteristics can be altered, and the process of doing so alters one's sex. To chalk this up to "two sexes" is a gross oversimplification.

No, there is no spectrum between xx chromosomes or xy chrosomes. It is binary. It is also the only thing that makes you a man or a woman. To change sex, one would need to change their chromosomes – which currently can’t be done. All other characteristics stem from this. Can you tell me how you come to see this as a spectrum?

We can't change chromosomes, but the physical changes caused by hormones are absolutely a component of biological sex. And our bodies can be changed with hormones.
Not as much as you are making out here. You can’t remove residual male physical strength advantage with hormones, you can’t make a real vagina (which is much more than a tube inside of you), you can’t make a well-functioning penis, you can’t change a man’s skeleton to any significant degree. They can be changed a little but that does not mean that someone has changed sex and if you think it does, you don’t understand what sex means.

I'm sure even the broad usage of "male" and "female" for strictly medical contexts wouldn't be much of issue, were you not so insistent on attaching other labels by proxy.

Did you see the earlier post explaining the GC position? Feminists have been working hard to unattach labels. What labels do you think people are trying to attach?

Because she chooses to identify that way, and there's no reason why you should be able to dictate her life and identity. Simple as that.

Will you stop calling women cis then? When you do so you dictate that they have a gender identity. Stop being hypocritical.

See, this kind of loaded, prejudiced garbage is precisely why trans women resist allowing you to apply any masculine labels on them.

Can we move away from the insults and try and engage in adult debate? Why do you think this is loaded prejudiced garbage? You do realise that we could say the same about your posts yes? But the GC people here are genuinely interested in discussion. Are you?

• AssassinatedBeauty So, @SillyStrings423, is a man with a hormone imbalance and resulting gynecomastia who has also been unlucky enough to lose a testicle to cancer less male than a man who doesn't suffer from those issues? Sounds like you make a whole lot of baseless assumptions here.*

You’re the one who said when you change your body you change sex. Can you explain why that is the case for trans people and not the case for this hypothetical man?

• @PurgatoryOfPotholes "Can you please tell me what man means as a social category?"

What do you mean "what it means"?*

This really is not a complicated question – define man, define woman.

The truth being, what? Trans women deny nothing about their biology. We simply do not believe biology dictates our social identities.

Neither do feminists. They do, however, believe that women are subjected to atrocities on the basis of their biology not their identities and they believe that removing an ability to talk about that is dangerous.

It typically encompasses masculine names and pronouns.

You’re a man if you have a masculine name? Are you seriously saying that is all a man is? It’s nothing to do with biology? If we went down this route, what language would we have to describe the inequalities between xx and xy people?

• Do you think a passing trans woman, whose trans status the person engaging jn discrimination is unaware of, somehow faces less discrimination than a identical looking cis woman?

Do you think that "psst, I was actually born male" would somehow result in less discrimination? That anti-trans discrimination simply doesn't exist?*

Males are brought up to see themselves as more valid and to self-promote more. So yes, they experience less discrimination in this regard given that the mode through which oppression often works is to get people to oppress themselves. Of course they do experience trans-based discrimination but that is not the same as female-based oppression. Trans-men would experience both.

Why do you assume there must be a single universal way to be a woman?

That’s really our point. I believe there are as many ways to ‘be a woman’ as there are women. This means that there is no point in trying to cohere an identity of women. Hence woman is just a biological terms.

• @PurgatoryOfPotholes So, you're saying that this trapping consists of using sex-based pronouns?

Pretty much. To insist to use masculine pronouns to refer to trans women is to forcefully shove them into the "male" box against their will, a box they made an extensive effort to leave.

I don't care how much space you think there is inside the box, stop pushing people into boxes they don't want to be in.*

We’re opening up the identity boxes. You are shutting them down and thinking you are offering freedom by offering a choice of a limited number of boxes. The GC way is to suggest that you make your own box (identity) and you change it whenever you want to. Your way is not freedom. The biology boxes I’m afraid are set by nature though I’m not sure that calling them boxes is particularly helpful when they are in fact just facts.

[quote SillyStrings423]@PurgatoryOfPotholes
So, you're saying that this trapping consists of using sex-based pronouns?

Pretty much. To insist to use masculine pronouns to refer to trans women is to forcefully shove them into the "male" box against their will, a box they made an extensive effort to leave.

I don't care how much space you think there is inside the box, stop pushing people into boxes they don't want to be in.[/quote]
I can think of plenty who made no more effort than saying ‘I’m a woman’ requires.

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

They weren't comfortable with it, simple as. Why do you feel the need to force them back in?

hang on, I'm not the one trying to get anyone to do anything. you want me to pretend I can't tell what sex people are - you want me to be kind.

explain to me why then? what was in the 'male' box that made it imperative to leave?

what was in the 'female' box that made it imperative to be there instead?

Look, if you want to get on about societal expectations, then yes, those can certainly be a factor. But it's also the physical dysphoria, as well the discomfort with the masculine words themselves.

No trans person ever said a man can't be feminine and still a man, but stop acting like it's some sort of "duty" for trans women to do the same when the fact is, they simply do not want to be "men" at all, even if the societal expectations were magically poofed away.

[quote SillyStrings423]@PurgatoryOfPotholes
So, you're saying that this trapping consists of using sex-based pronouns?

Pretty much. To insist to use masculine pronouns to refer to trans women is to forcefully shove them into the "male" box against their will, a box they made an extensive effort to leave.

I don't care how much space you think there is inside the box, stop pushing people into boxes they don't want to be in.[/quote]
If this trapping consists of pronouns, what does this trapping look like in countries that don’t use sex based pronouns in their language?

a human who does not produce gametes is either too or too young to do so or has a medical condition

Females are also born with all of her eggs.

It's amazing that when a mother is carrying her daughter inside her womb, if that daughter has a child in the future, she will also be carrying the egg that will produce her future grandchild.

Also, if her daughter has a rare medical condition that means she never ovulates, she's still female.

It's not just about toilets. Females should not be forced to share hospital wards, prison cells, domestic violence shelters, dormitories etc with males, however they identify. They should not be forced to accept males, however they identify, as their rape counsellors or in their support groups.

Any male, however they identify, who thinks they have a right to be in those spaces, has proven themselves to be untrustworthy on account of their refusal to accept that no means no.

[quote SillyStrings423]@Blibbyblobby
"Genderists would say their discomfort is because the child was "assigned" the wrong gender (B) based on an incorrect link between sex and gender (A) and (B)"

Do you think a trans woman's desire to be physiologically female is a matter of "stereotypes"? Do you think it's a matter of "stereotypes" to make relevant changes to one's body?

You're making a false assumption that it's about "stereotypes" or "expectations", when it simply is not.[/quote]
Do you think a trans woman's desire to be physiologically female is a matter of "stereotypes"? Do you think it's a matter of "stereotypes" to make relevant changes to one's body

Firstly, as I told you on the other thread, trans-first organisations no longer require a "desire to be physiologically female" to say someone is a trans woman. So I think your idea of a trans woman is probably a little old fashioned.

Secondly, WTF? I am literally playing your words back to you. You say Man and Woman are social categories not physical sexes. You say an assumed gender of Man or Woman is assigned at birth based on the sex of the baby but it can be wrong which leads to discomfort. What exactly is the thing that is wrong then, if it's not the social expectations that come with the wrong social category being attached to the sex of the baby? What is the child experiencing that leads them to realise their assigned label is wrong? (A couple of examples here will be more useful than hand-wavy concepts because I'm clearly not getting it).

But leaving that aside, why does a male's "desire to be physiologically female" mean that they are in some deep, real way in fact a woman and not a man? What is the difference between men and women in your eyes?

BTW, I asked you two really important questions on the other thread:

1. What do trans women have in common with cis women but not with any other female people, not with non-binary people, and not with men of either sex? Similarly, what do trans men have in common with cis men but not with any other male people, not with non-binary people and not with women of either sex?

1. Why are those things they have in common because of their gender more relevant than the things that are different because of their sex when it comes to sport, safe/private spaces, risk of committing or suffering sexual abuse, career and economic power, political representation and so on, when we have clear evidence that sex is a significant factor in all those things?

I think if you can answer those it will really help me understand where you are coming from.

@BloodinGutters
"You have not mentioned the vast majority of women who, by nature of having no gender identity are nether cis nor trans, but I will assume you mean those women too."

If they call themselves "women", then that is their gender identity. The label itself is the gender identity. Not "associated gender expectations" or whatever.

No trans person ever said a man can't be feminine and still a man, but stop acting like it's some sort of "duty" for trans women to do the same when the fact is, they simply do not want to be "men" at all, even if the societal expectations were magically poofed away.

What does feminine mean?
If being a man is simply about names and pronouns, what does 'simply not wanting to be a man' mean?