For the Attention of Posters in the "bloody terf" thread

[PurgatoryOfPotholes]

So we can stop disrupting the OP's thread, and continue the discussion here.

@Blibbyblobby
"Genderists would say their discomfort is because the child was "assigned" the wrong gender (B) based on an incorrect link between sex and gender (A) and (B)"

Do you think a trans woman's desire to be physiologically female is a matter of "stereotypes"? Do you think it's a matter of "stereotypes" to make relevant changes to one's body?

You're making a false assumption that it's about "stereotypes" or "expectations", when it simply is not.

I took a deep breath and rolled up my sleeves when I saw that thread, about to dive in... then I stopped to consider who is worthy of my time, and who is unable to engage in good faith.

Also why all the underlining?

Re the OP - questioning is always good. "Can you explain what, exactly, you mean by that? How would that work? "
And watch out for them conflating sex and gender. Bad when cisnormies do it, good when it's necessary to perform a linguistic sleight of hand because being honest would make your argument look bad...

Also OP, watch out for dismissing or handwaving away the very fact of male violence, which kills people at breathtaking rates. You can tell that's MRA dogma at work.

[quote SillyStrings423]@Blibbyblobby
"These segregated spaces exist because of male behaviour. They are not the result of a random whimsical social decision back in the day to separate females from males, they were created specifically in response to male violence and encroachment on female people."

That's weird, because as far I can tell, the segregation is a product of patriarchal gender norms, and the notion that women are fragile delicate flowers in need of constant sheltering from the brutal society is a part of those gender norms.

That's actually part of the reason why for a long time women were expected not to leave home without a male escort.[/quote]
Patriarchal gender norms - like male entitlement to women’s bodies and male violence against women and girls?

Yeah that’s a huge part of why we have sex segregated spaces.

There’s also the fact we have differently sexed bodies so differing needs. Single sexed spaces gives us the privacy and dignity (and gives those to men also) to deal with the different experiences each sex goes through.

That's weird, because as far I can tell, the segregation is a product of patriarchal gender norms, and the notion that women are fragile delicate flowers in need of constant sheltering from the brutal society is a part of those gender norms.

It’s not because women are fragile delicate flowers. It’s because the people with penises are the ones that do all the raping.

That's actually part of the reason why for a long time women were expected not to leave home without a male escort.

Er, not quite. It was (and is in some places) because women were viewed as the possession of men, so men had to ensure that they couldn’t go off and do their own thing, and that other men couldn’t steal them.

Oh and you still haven’t managed to define woman, have you?

@Blibbyblobby
"The Genderist view is, I think, that we should keep (B) and (C) but get rid of (A)."

Not really.

A woman, cis or trans, can live and present however she wants. There is no requirement to be feminine, nor does anyone presenting feminine need to be a woman.

A man, cis or trans, can live and present however she wants. There is no requirement to be masculine, nor does anyone presenting masculine need to be a man.

A non-binary person, can live and present however they want. There is no requirement to be androgynous, nor does anyone presenting androgynous need to be non-binary.

But they can be.

That is what the "genderist" view is. We keep trying to tell you. There doesn't need to be a "link" between presentation and identity.
There is no such obligation.

You may think that's "similar" to what you believe, but it is not. Because unlike me and other trans people and allies, you believe in restricting and policing other people's identities. We do not.

I too am dying to hear what the characteristics of the social category 'man' are

how do I know if I'm dealing with a man?

(underlining is my new favourite thing )

what do you call a person with the kind of body that can gestate a baby sillystring ?

do you accept that they may have different needs to people who don't have those kinds of bodies?

That's weird, because as far I can tell, the segregation is a product of patriarchal gender norms, and the notion that women are fragile delicate flowers in need of constant sheltering from the brutal society is a part of those gender norms.

Wanting to be safe from sexual assault, rape and male violence - actual violence, not literal violence - does not make a woman a "delicate flower".

@WiseUpJanetWeiss

Oh and you still haven’t managed to define woman, have you?

Both "man" and "woman" are social and cultural identities, originally constructed around biological sex.

It's easy to define. You just keep ignoring the clear definitions I give you.

That's weird, because as far I can tell, the segregation is a product of patriarchal gender norms, and the notion that women are fragile delicate flowers in need of constant sheltering from the brutal society is a part of those gender norms.

Well you are wrong then.

Its largely because 98% of sexual crime is perpetrated by males and so in some circumstances women need sex segregated spaces.

Both "man" and "woman" are social and cultural identities, originally constructed around biological sex.

What do you mean?

What is your definition of a woman? It's a fairly easy question.

A woman, cis or trans, can live and present however she wants. There is no requirement to be feminine, nor does anyone presenting feminine need to be a woman.

Apart from the use of the term cis, you’ll have no argument about this from GC women. This is precisely the point. The only discussion point we’d have is about the definition of woman.

My definition is “adult human female” where “female” is the sex class that produces eggs (large, non motile gametes).

What’s your definition?

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

If they think the sun orbits the earth in the alien place they’d be sorely mistaken as our several transuns perform an intricate dance around our moonbinary that means our plant must perform the dance-of-adoration-whilst-swallowing-ones-tongue to avoid dying in a sunfire.

you believe in restricting and policing other people's identities. We do not.

We believe that there are many situations where identity, if you believe you have one, cannot and should not trump sex.

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

what do you call a person with the kind of body that can gestate a baby sillystring ?

do you accept that they may have different needs to people who don't have those kinds of bodies?

If we're referring to a specific individual, I call them whatever they want to be called. If I'm talking about a theoretical currently undergoing pregnancy, "pregnant person" does the job fine.

I'm sure even the broad usage of "male" and "female" for strictly medical contexts wouldn't be much of issue, were you not so insistent on attaching other labels by proxy.

Both "man" and "woman" are social and cultural identities, originally constructed around biological sex.

So you do acknowledge there are two sexes? What are the words you want to use to describe the biological sexes?

A woman, cis or trans, can live and present however she wants. There is no requirement to be feminine, nor does anyone presenting feminine need to be a woman.

I agree that anyone can present how they want.

But on what basis is a male who says he feels like a woman actually a woman? How does that work exactly?

@WiseUpJanetWeiss

A woman, cis or trans, can live and present however she wants. There is no requirement to be feminine, nor does anyone presenting feminine need to be a woman.

Apart from the use of the term cis, you’ll have no argument about this from GC women. This is precisely the point. The only discussion point we’d have is about the definition of woman.

My definition is “adult human female” where “female” is the sex class that produces eggs (large, non motile gametes).

What’s your definition?

What about women that, for one reason or another do not produce eggs?

Both "man" and "woman" are social and cultural identities, originally constructed around biological sex.

So TWASACIOCABS, then.

What about women that, for one reason or another do not produce eggs?

I'm post menopausal and can confirm that I have not turned into a man.

@WiseUpJanetWeiss

Both "man" and "woman" are social and cultural identities, originally constructed around biological sex.

So you do acknowledge there are two sexes? What are the words you want to use to describe the biological sexes?

Sex itself is a sum of physical characteristics that fall on a bimodal spectrum. Many of these characteristics can be altered, and the process of doing so alters one's sex. To chalk this up to "two sexes" is a gross oversimplification.

I'm sure even the broad usage of "male" and "female" for strictly medical contexts wouldn't be much of issue, were you not so insistent on attaching other labels by proxy.

So you agree that transwomen are not female then? In which case they must be male? And you understand that therefore they are in the sex class of which 98% perpetuate sexual crime?

Do you understand that the word 'woman' is the word in the English language that is used to refer to an adult human female. In the same way that 'mare' is used for adult horse female, and 'ewe' is used for adult sheep female? If we are not going to use 'woman' for adult human female, then how will we distinguish female humans from female horses for example?

What about women that, for one reason or another do not produce eggs?

They are still of the sex class that produce eggs. As per the dictionary definition of female.

This really isn't that difficult.