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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

For the Attention of Posters in the "bloody terf" thread

706 replies

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 24/10/2021 18:04

So we can stop disrupting the OP's thread, and continue the discussion here.

OP posts:
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BloodinGutters · 25/10/2021 18:52

@Sevensilverrings

Just to be clear, when I used the word ‘binary’ upthread, I meant in the sense discussions and views had become very binary. As in polarised and concrete. I was trying to make the point that some posters need to try and address the grey areas. Because there are grey areas. (And I know even saying that is taboo here). That doesn’t mean budging an inch on safety or safeguarding or research or open dialog. Or on calling down unacceptable behaviour… In terms of youth becoming ‘less binary’, I meant in stereotyped expression. Teens that I know are much more able to dress how they want and conform less to stereotypes, regardless of how labelled this is just now, and for many it’s really healthy. For many it’s playing with identity in the way teens always have.( I do understand the risks) That’s all I meant. Nuance in that it’s, well, complicated. And perhaps the young people will find a way through this mess that’s healthy. but I really am beginning to see from the responses I got (when I’m very gender ideology critical in my views) how tricky it must be for someone who buys into gender ideology to even hear what is being said if it’s said so aggressively. I’ve never felt unlistened to on MN really, and maybe I used the wrong terminology, or said things not totally clearly, but I now understand, even when I agree with you lot on the whole, why it’s called an echo chamber here, and my equally gender critical friends won’t come near these discussion boards. It’s a scary place. It’s sad, but I’m going to step away and just stick to real life discussions, where I imagine if I met you lot we wouldn’t shout each other down or even disagree much. Such is social media I guess! Anyway, hastily posted (while I wait for my gender critical, gay, non conforming, teen son coming out of his audition). So apologies again if I’ve been unclear.
Women are scary. Guess we should be more kind?

Look at teenage fashion throughout the last several decades. Many are way less stereotypical binary of masculine and feminine than there is currently. It’s only really the ‘00 that went fairly stereotypically again in presentation.

What grey areas are there?

TheWeeDonkey · 25/10/2021 18:53

@Gncq

Monsignor Oh no, no don't forget about the well known frequent situation where nasty t**f bigots are always chasing butch lesbians out of the ladies loos because they look too masculine, and making them cry.
Hang on. I have it on great authority that lesbians are far and away more violent than men, and way more predatory.

In fact I saw a thread here where someone (who I'm sure was posting in good faith Hmm ) said that it would probably be safer to have males present at women only or lesbian festivals as those women are feral once the moon comes out. Shock

BloodinGutters · 25/10/2021 18:57

[quote Waitwhat23]**@Sevensilverrings* the only posters who replied directly to your post (or even mentioned nuances in passing) were @ChewtonRoad and @BloodinGutters*, neither of whose post could be described as aggressive. In fact one of the posts asked you to further expand on points you made in your post (which you yourself said you had not been particularly clear on).

This board is (by necessity) a fairly polite board, particularly when compared to the AIBU board for example. Questioning yes, discussing, yes but you certainly weren't attacked. I do wonder your thoughts on the aggressive, rude posts by the TRA posters on this thread who have, (due to the rules of this board) been given a huge amount of latitude which wouldn't have been afforded the GC posters?[/quote]
I don’t think I’m polite. But I’m not aggressive.

I think for plenty people a woman being direct without being all sugar and spice and handholding and pandering is perceived as aggressive.

Of course for some people out there women not spreading our legs is deemed aggressive, so I’m inclined not to care about how people perceive me when I know I’m not going around yelling suck my dick you stupid bigots.

Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 25/10/2021 19:05

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

I'm famous! Grin

No-one on Twitter seems to want to describe what it's a social category of, beyond declaring it a category. Sadly.

twitter.com/setoacnna/status/1452578446501158915?t=qH712jF5OFrIDMroRPZDEg&s=19

Fortunately, SillyStrings423 explained. It's sex-based pronouns and whether your forename is more usually a female name or a male name, according to SillyStrings.

Lol! The subtext in every single one of those replies is 'I ain't actually got a fucking clue how I would answer this question either, but I'm not going to miss an opportunity to take the piss out of Mumsnet!'
ANewCreation · 25/10/2021 19:18

It's daft that we have to keep on playing pretend.

Woman is a sex based term and everyone knows what a woman is because every person on the planet throughout all human history has been born from one.

There are 6500 physical differences between the sexes, meaning as a woman I have literally over six thousand more things in common with any female transperson than any male transperson, before we even start on any life experiences.

Maybe because of the nature of our menstrual cycles and our complex feelings around our reproductive potential - whether present or absent - women are almost constantly aware of the physical reality of our sexed female bodies, in a way I imagine that men just aren't.

A male transperson never has to worry about a crisis pregnancy following rape, or leaking, or peri menopausal flooding, or childbirth, or break through bleeding, or miscarriage etc. A female transperson may.

A male transperson is never going to be a woman in the way that every woman on the planet (including their own mum) is. The 'waking up in the morning and going about your day as a female' way of womanning.

The fact that the baby boy she gave birth to, fed and nurtured, who grew up and fathered children is now dressing in feminine clothes or calling themselves by a feminine name or insisting she use feminine pronouns to describe them or having cosmetic surgery or creating an endocrine disorder by excessive use of opposite sex hormones or applying for a new birth certificate doesn't change reality.

A mother and her male child's experiences have been and are and always will be entirely different, no matter the subsequent 'gender identity' of the male child. Interesting and valuable experiences in their own right, maybe, but by definition they have to be male experiences because no female person can be MTF.

Thus what male transpeople are doing is 'expanding the bandwidth' of maleness, not femaleness - which is why, when it comes down to it, their experiences are not any more interesting or relevant to me as a woman than those of any man. And their 'need' for female only spaces likewise.

And while I theoretically imagined I might be far more interested in what female transpeople have to say, in practice the Freddies and Whittles and Mortons of the world have actively surprised and unnerved me with their self absorbed misogyny.

allmywhat · 25/10/2021 19:43

Can’t help translating that Twitter exchange as

“Help! Can anyone come up with a good answer to this question for me? Not that it matters because only stupid people would ask this question.”

“uhhh, uhh I don’t know, ummm, uhhh, gosh, et, social categories, lol how stupid that person is for asking this question! It’s like she can’t even see the Emperor’s shimmering cloak.”

Alektopteryx · 25/10/2021 19:55

I would say I'm surprised that they didn't pay you the basic courtesy of obscuring your username PurgatoryOfPotholes before they tweeted it to their >8.5k followers, but it would be a lie so I won't.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 25/10/2021 19:57

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

I'm famous! Grin

No-one on Twitter seems to want to describe what it's a social category of, beyond declaring it a category. Sadly.

twitter.com/setoacnna/status/1452578446501158915?t=qH712jF5OFrIDMroRPZDEg&s=19

Fortunately, SillyStrings423 explained. It's sex-based pronouns and whether your forename is more usually a female name or a male name, according to SillyStrings.

literally none of them can explain it
  • what do all members of this category have in common? (no circular logic now!)
  • how can we tell if someone is not a member of this category?

but I'm glad knowing the phrase 'social category' is giving everyone a warm glow of superiority

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 25/10/2021 20:00

And while I theoretically imagined I might be far more interested in what female transpeople have to say, in practice the Freddies and Whittles and Mortons of the world have actively surprised and unnerved me with their self absorbed misogyny.

yup. somehow that attitude is more disappointing from a woman. which i know is just another flavour of holding women to higher standards.

but still

BloodinGutters · 25/10/2021 20:10

WILL NO ONE EVER LISTEN TO ME!?

I’m going to again propose we get together a petition to lobby for a sniffer dog per person, to crotch sniff and inform their humans which other humans belong to the sex class that commits violence and which belongs to the sex class that doesn’t.

You dogist bigots (we know allergies are just a socially constructed binary) will just have to get over it.

Humans with our superior expanded identities have risen above such basic facts, but a lowly species like canines still demean such elementary instincts.

Added bonus is they rather like sausage and will be quite happy chopping on a similar ish appendage if the member of the sex class that commits violence were to take it out around a member of the sex class that doesn’t.*

*we don’t need to add that in the petition though.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 25/10/2021 20:11

Can I choose what breed I get?

OP posts:
BrandineDelRoy · 25/10/2021 20:11

@NoNotMeNoSiree

Blood soaked sanitary pads get changed in the cubicle though, why would you be seen doing that? You change it and put it in the sanitary bin, behind closed doors. As for underwear, do people wash them out in the sinks in the ladies? Never seen that, and even if people do, how many people carry around spare underwear with them at all times? Surely it would make more sense to change pads and get clean underwear when you get home, as washing them out in the sink would just make you have soggy pants.
I've been thinking more about this one. I can honestly say I've never washed blood off underwear in a communal sink. I did have a blood clot fall out of my pad and on the restroom floor when I was 12. 😬

However, I did to deal with milk leaking and staining my shirt while pregnant and breastfeeding quite a number of times. I needed a mirror to wash and sort things out. I would have been mortified doing this in front of a male person of any gender.

BloodinGutters · 25/10/2021 20:12

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

And while I theoretically imagined I might be far more interested in what female transpeople have to say, in practice the Freddies and Whittles and Mortons of the world have actively surprised and unnerved me with their self absorbed misogyny.

yup. somehow that attitude is more disappointing from a woman. which i know is just another flavour of holding women to higher standards.

but still

They think they can escape misogyny by being male.

Which kinda sounds like the most super special version of ‘I’m not like other girls, I’m a cool girl’ trope.

BloodinGutters · 25/10/2021 20:14

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Can I choose what breed I get?
As long as you understand it must be a real dog. We are not allowing transhandbag dogs.
OldCrone · 25/10/2021 20:14

And while I theoretically imagined I might be far more interested in what female transpeople have to say, in practice the Freddies and Whittles and Mortons of the world have actively surprised and unnerved me with their self absorbed misogyny.

They're the ones who take 'not like other girls' to extremes. This link, posted earlier by the OP sums it up.

culturallyboundgender.wordpress.com/2015/05/20/to-be-different-from-other-girls-on-misogyny-inside-and-out/

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 25/10/2021 20:22

Interesting conversations about periods! I always carry spare pants and have done since 11. Anyone who is surprised by that has either never had a period or never had a heavy one. You can't wear the bloody pants as they would be so heavy with blood it would drip down your leg and through clothes. I frequently had large blood clots land on the floor. When you took the tampon out everything backed up behind it came flying out too. Of course you were aiming for all that to land in the toilet but blood clot aiming is a very tricky art. Anyone who wants to say there are no dignity issues with sharing facilities should at least be realistic about what the issues actually are.

ArabellaScott · 25/10/2021 20:28

@allmywhat

Can’t help translating that Twitter exchange as

“Help! Can anyone come up with a good answer to this question for me? Not that it matters because only stupid people would ask this question.”

“uhhh, uhh I don’t know, ummm, uhhh, gosh, et, social categories, lol how stupid that person is for asking this question! It’s like she can’t even see the Emperor’s shimmering cloak.”

My, Emperor, what a big cloak you have!
BloodinGutters · 25/10/2021 20:32

[quote OldCrone]And while I theoretically imagined I might be far more interested in what female transpeople have to say, in practice the Freddies and Whittles and Mortons of the world have actively surprised and unnerved me with their self absorbed misogyny.

They're the ones who take 'not like other girls' to extremes. This link, posted earlier by the OP sums it up.

culturallyboundgender.wordpress.com/2015/05/20/to-be-different-from-other-girls-on-misogyny-inside-and-out/[/quote]
There’s the women declaring they love twaw, giggles.

And the women declaring they aren’t women.

Both are different versions of the I’m not like other girls trope.

I did both at different times as a teen/young adult in some form. Long before all this. They have my sympathy.

But the fucking grown up women who know this is a crock of shit and say nothing make me angry. I understand the fear involved in hiding from this also. But when it’s teachers or social workers or hcp or other adults in a position of power over children and who have a responsibility to safeguard them I feel stuck at rage for failing to safeguard children.

All kinds of enraged at men about this too. The knowing ones and the ones with the privilege of ignorance. But I’m also not surprised at them. The women who do know better and who are knowingly failing children anyways feel like the worst betrayal.

*sorry me-railing tangent ranting.

BrandineDelRoy · 25/10/2021 20:32

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

Interesting conversations about periods! I always carry spare pants and have done since 11. Anyone who is surprised by that has either never had a period or never had a heavy one. You can't wear the bloody pants as they would be so heavy with blood it would drip down your leg and through clothes. I frequently had large blood clots land on the floor. When you took the tampon out everything backed up behind it came flying out too. Of course you were aiming for all that to land in the toilet but blood clot aiming is a very tricky art. Anyone who wants to say there are no dignity issues with sharing facilities should at least be realistic about what the issues actually are.
Thank you for saying this.
mammajustkilledagnat · 25/10/2021 20:40

I've had to try and wash blood out of the back of a skirt before, and then used a coat/cardigan tied around the waist to hide the patch. Rare, but it has happened. More common is having blood on my hands that needs washing off. It is embarrassing for me that other women see this, I cannot imagine what it would be like for males to be present.

BloodinGutters · 25/10/2021 20:42

So @PurgatoryOfPotholes what breed of puppy would you like arranged for you?

And would you like the pink bow variety or the I’ll-hump-your-face-while-you-sleep variety? (I have one of these, while he belongs to this sex class he doesn’t actually do this. However that’s not a sign he in fact belongs to the sex class that wears sparkly pink bows and is throughly humiliated when his junior humans try to assign him to performing the sex role stereotypes of the pink bow variety. And then he eats the bows).

Alektopteryx · 25/10/2021 20:43

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

Interesting conversations about periods! I always carry spare pants and have done since 11. Anyone who is surprised by that has either never had a period or never had a heavy one. You can't wear the bloody pants as they would be so heavy with blood it would drip down your leg and through clothes. I frequently had large blood clots land on the floor. When you took the tampon out everything backed up behind it came flying out too. Of course you were aiming for all that to land in the toilet but blood clot aiming is a very tricky art. Anyone who wants to say there are no dignity issues with sharing facilities should at least be realistic about what the issues actually are.

Yes. Flooding episodes at work are difficult enough to manage. I don't think they're something that can be dealt with without a sink.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 25/10/2021 20:47

@BloodinGutters

So *@PurgatoryOfPotholes* what breed of puppy would you like arranged for you?

And would you like the pink bow variety or the I’ll-hump-your-face-while-you-sleep variety? (I have one of these, while he belongs to this sex class he doesn’t actually do this. However that’s not a sign he in fact belongs to the sex class that wears sparkly pink bows and is throughly humiliated when his junior humans try to assign him to performing the sex role stereotypes of the pink bow variety. And then he eats the bows).

A elderly gold retriever. Even if it's lame.
OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 25/10/2021 20:52

Gold lame?

BloodinGutters · 25/10/2021 20:57

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

So your after a transage puppy? I’ll have to check the terms of the sniffer pup agreement. But as long as it can sniff and bite your probably good.