For the Attention of Posters in the "bloody terf" thread

[PurgatoryOfPotholes]

So we can stop disrupting the OP's thread, and continue the discussion here.

[quote SpookySeason77]@PleaseGoDontGoAgain
"You seem to think including Transwomen in the word Men devalues them somehow."

Well yeah, it's denigrating, dysphoria-inducing transphobia. You know full well how deeply uncomfortable trans women are with being forced into that box. It's seriously little different than pressuring a gay man to marry a woman: you are pressuring someone to repress a fundamental part of themselves.

Yet you choose to do it anyway. How is it anything but outright malicious?[/quote]
You know how deeply terrifying it is for many female people to have a male bodied person in their single sex spaces but you do it anyways?

How is that anything but malicious?

I see that word “normal” is being thrown around again.

Not by any regulars though.

I never see the words “normal women” until the TRAs pop up.

Womens fear doesn’t matter though does it, it never has

The validation tank is oblivious to women except as support props

@Ereshkigalangcleg

It's not about being "trans", it's about being male.

Absolutely. Transmen are entirely welcome to use women’s single sex spaces. The trans part isn’t the problem.

[quote SpookySeason77]@OldCrone
The overwhelming majority of rapes committed against female prisoners are committed by guards, not transgender inmates. I don't see any of you saying a peep about that little fact for some reason.

Almost as if incancerated women aren't actually the concern, but rather, they are just one of many convenient rhetorical tools to stoke hatred against transgender people.[/quote]
If feminists campaigned for an end to male prison guards in women’s prisons (which may well be a decent campaign to push for, although the whole issue of what to do about male staff violence towards women in prison certainly does need more discussion) would it still be acceptable to house transwomen in women’s prisons?

I mean probably all prisons need looking at, proper research into how to provide safety in prisons for everyone.

fun as it was watching SuperStupid976 twist and turn and trip over themselves, I think my takeaway from this thread is that someone who wants to force others to pretend to perceive them as a member of the opposite sex has no place making policy in this area. their clear psychological distress renders them completely incapable of empathy for others

But trans women and trans men do feel comfortable using women's and men's restrooms respectively, especially in later stages of their transition to the point they blend in without causing any trouble, I see no reason why they shouldn't.

Ugh. Typical cares about own comfort but not the comfort and privacy of females approach. It's so fucking arrogant.

[quote SpookySeason77]@OldCrone
The overwhelming majority of rapes committed against female prisoners are committed by guards, not transgender inmates. I don't see any of you saying a peep about that little fact for some reason.

Almost as if incancerated women aren't actually the concern, but rather, they are just one of many convenient rhetorical tools to stoke hatred against transgender people.[/quote]
That’s because there’s way way more guards than transgender prisoners in women’s prisons.

Self id comes in that will change dramatically.

@NonnyMouse1337

Have you met any teenagers? Do you think a student coming out as trans wouldn't be at exceedingly high risk of becoming a target of bullying?

It's fairly straightforward - single-sex toilets for the girls and boys, with a small number of enclosed cubicles for the trans students. Why should males use female-only facilities if they will be bullied?

And why is the discussion revolving around male bodies in female spaces.

What about the ideology sending female bodies transboys to the male toilets. What does spooky think will happen to these trans people?

That was an interesting read. I was trying to research statistics about sexual assaults in prisons, because it's often stated that guards/women are the biggest threat to women in prison. I had not realised that a large proportion of what are recorded as sexual adults are motivated by an attempt to retrieve hidden drugs or phones. I'm not making a point with this,just hadn't considered it previously.

Sexual assaults,sorry

I haven’t waded my way through the entire thread yet, but please for the love of god, can someone answer the question:

If a ‘woman’ neither has to be born with a female body, nor has to perform or present as such, then how do they know they are a woman? What is this magical woman feeling? How would you know if you felt it?

I actually do think male guards should be removed from women's prisons. However, the knockon effect of putting transwomen in women's prisons is that we will need more male prison guards in the women's estate in case the additional, much stronger inmates need to be restrained.

So I don't understand why male guards are used as a gotcha.

Your complaints about trans women being called women are no different from "sancity of marriage" bullshit.

Offensive bull crap.

98% of sexual crime is perpetrated by males. Transwomen are male. As someone upthread said, the basic entry level requirement of being a transwoman is that you are male.

And at the moment, there is absolutely no objective point at which one could say that a male who identifies as a woman actually becomes a woman and comes out of the high risk category of male and into the low risk category of female. Therefore women are saying no to transwomen in female spaces. Because we already segregate by sex and transwomen are of the male sex.

Nothing like the 'sanctity of marriage' stuff but nice try.

Oh and it's true that when you call us 'transphobic bigots' it does sound just like when religious people call atheists 'heretics/infidels'. You can believe what you like, think of yourself how you like, do what makes you happy, I make no moral judgement on you for that. But what you cannot do is make others believe the same thing.

The idea that any male either is, or can become a woman is absurd magical thinking. Women are the sex class female and men are the opposite sex class. That's really all there is to it.

Any attack on women's boundaries around men is an example of male entitlement, or the enabling of it by other women, in a time honoured way that some women have always done.

someone who wants to force others to pretend to perceive them as a member of the opposite sex has no place making policy in this area. their clear psychological distress renders them completely incapable of empathy for others

YY.

I have asked to have my previous post withdrawn as I see that Sillystring423 has changed their username to @SpookySeason77.

So here is the withdrawn post updated with the new username:

In one of @SpookySeason77's posts, they claimed that if transwomen were put in a room and stripped naked no one would be able to tell them from women. This post is errant nonsense, along with all the other claims that SpookySeason77 has made.

I am, on the other hand, entertained by SpookySeason773's many feeble attempts at "gotcha" like But you defined the sex class by the ability to produce eggs? If producing eggs isn't what defines the sex class, what is it? What is a sex class?

That partially referred my post in response to one of SpookySeason77's blithering post in which they defined man and woman as "cultural and social categories". I replied that male (note the difference in language between male and man) denoted the class that produces small mobile gametes and female the class that produces large immobile gametes.

My mother had her ovaries removed due to ovarian cancer. She was still female. A former colleague had his testicles removed due to testicular cancer. He was still male.

SpookySeason77's post demonstrate that they are unable to put together clear, consistent arguments.

And now we have the abusive posts.

@CorvusPurpureus

Why on earth would a teenager feel suicidal at being given the choice of own sex or unisex facilities?

This would clearly be a young person who was quite unwell, & demonstrating a high level of distress. Poor kid.

I don't know

I'm sure that the females in the locker room are going to be so pleased to see a hard 'thing' suddenly appear.

Just catching up on this thread and lolling at the men that find it astounding that a woman would have spare pants on them. I carry a pair in my handbag at all times! LIke many women. See this is the thing, these entitled men think they know what it is to be a woman and think they are performing it. But they really haven't got a clue what being a woman actually entails. Because it's rooted in female biology, which they don't have.

@Sonex

Just catching up on this thread and lolling at the men that find it astounding that a woman would have spare pants on them. I carry a pair in my handbag at all times! LIke many women. See this is the thing, these entitled men think they know what it is to be a woman and think they are performing it. But they really haven't got a clue what being a woman actually entails. Because it's rooted in female biology, which they don't have.

I was lolling at the bewilderment that a woman would want to rinse the blood out straight away, instead of waiting to when she got home, whenever that was going to be.

I mean, duh. You want to get blood stains out straight away. I'm not going to leave blood to set until I've finished my shift and got home. It's like the poster was assuming women didn't have jobs and lives and they only ever ventured five minutes from home.

I don’t join these discussions, but I do read and learn from them.
I wonder if some posters can in anyway be willing to just read back and see how unproductive it is to have a discussion where there is no concession to ‘not knowing’ or ‘wondering’ or ‘exploring’? it’s all so polarised it’s difficult to progress. The discussions like this mimic the problem. I can see why it gets like this, but it just entrenches peoples views.
If people hate the binary, you’d think there would be more of a willingness to get into the nuance. Binary thinking (a byproduct of social media)? is rarely informative. It doesn’t grow understanding.
If you completely accept that your beliefs are correct, it’s still ok to admit some areas of them are problematic. And to search for empathy.
For example, ‘trans people should use the toilet of their choice’, but because male born trans people continue to offend sexually at the same rate as men we need to consider the problems traditionally tackled by segregating bathrooms don’t we? Also huge safety problems around safety of trans people born female who do not pass using male bathrooms I should think. (Isn’t it hard to just ignore in any discussion that male born people are a threat to female born people? It would be great if they weren’t, but ignoring that is at the root of the problem with all this I think. Feminists would dearly love if no mitigation’s were required, but they are, aren’t they)? Surely trans people can empathise with women here? They also feel threatened regularly, so perhaps can find a way to get alongside women on the safety issues and concerns?
On the other hand, I do have issue with my views tallying with the political right (as do many feminists)! I don’t like the way the press tackle and stir up issues, but I hope my (learned over many years) ability to stand back and look at what I can see of the situation critically helps to keep me balanced in my views.
It’s also clear that teen girls are transitioning at a phenomenally high rate, should we not at least discuss, for the well-being of these young people, what that could be about? Therapy should always be explorative. We don’t want people who transition to regret their choice or make it for reasons to do with trauma etc do we)?
I love that today’s teens are less ‘binary’ in many many ways, and I have optimism we might land in a less extreme place that is healthier in the long run. But I do strongly feel we have somewhat lost our way getting there, and we always need to keep peoples realities and safety at the heart of things. Surely trans allies can recognise the need for that, and discuss the problems without it being about ‘threat to existence’?
I have no illusion that anyone under 30 gives a shit about my viewpoint, I truly hate identity politics, and acknowledge this may be generational. Believe it or not my parents couldn’t understand my choices either! but I really do give a shit about young people and women’s safety regardless of how they identify, and I hope we can try to get that back to the centre of everyone’s thinking. Why would anyone not centre that?

@Sonex

Just catching up on this thread and lolling at the men that find it astounding that a woman would have spare pants on them. I carry a pair in my handbag at all times! LIke many women. See this is the thing, these entitled men think they know what it is to be a woman and think they are performing it. But they really haven't got a clue what being a woman actually entails. Because it's rooted in female biology, which they don't have.

Me too. Same as I always carry tampons and wet wipes incase I start early.

It’s pretty standard for women unless they’ve only ever had very predictable and light periods.

@Sevensilverrings

I don’t join these discussions, but I do read and learn from them. I wonder if some posters can in anyway be willing to just read back and see how unproductive it is to have a discussion where there is no concession to ‘not knowing’ or ‘wondering’ or ‘exploring’? it’s all so polarised it’s difficult to progress. The discussions like this mimic the problem. I can see why it gets like this, but it just entrenches peoples views. If people hate the binary, you’d think there would be more of a willingness to get into the nuance. Binary thinking (a byproduct of social media)? is rarely informative. It doesn’t grow understanding. If you completely accept that your beliefs are correct, it’s still ok to admit some areas of them are problematic. And to search for empathy. For example, ‘trans people should use the toilet of their choice’, but because male born trans people continue to offend sexually at the same rate as men we need to consider the problems traditionally tackled by segregating bathrooms don’t we? Also huge safety problems around safety of trans people born female who do not pass using male bathrooms I should think. (Isn’t it hard to just ignore in any discussion that male born people are a threat to female born people? It would be great if they weren’t, but ignoring that is at the root of the problem with all this I think. Feminists would dearly love if no mitigation’s were required, but they are, aren’t they)? Surely trans people can empathise with women here? They also feel threatened regularly, so perhaps can find a way to get alongside women on the safety issues and concerns? On the other hand, I do have issue with my views tallying with the political right (as do many feminists)! I don’t like the way the press tackle and stir up issues, but I hope my (learned over many years) ability to stand back and look at what I can see of the situation critically helps to keep me balanced in my views. It’s also clear that teen girls are transitioning at a phenomenally high rate, should we not at least discuss, for the well-being of these young people, what that could be about? Therapy should always be explorative. We don’t want people who transition to regret their choice or make it for reasons to do with trauma etc do we)? I love that today’s teens are less ‘binary’ in many many ways, and I have optimism we might land in a less extreme place that is healthier in the long run. But I do strongly feel we have somewhat lost our way getting there, and we always need to keep peoples realities and safety at the heart of things. Surely trans allies can recognise the need for that, and discuss the problems without it being about ‘threat to existence’? I have no illusion that anyone under 30 gives a shit about my viewpoint, I truly hate identity politics, and acknowledge this may be generational. Believe it or not my parents couldn’t understand my choices either! but I really do give a shit about young people and women’s safety regardless of how they identify, and I hope we can try to get that back to the centre of everyone’s thinking. Why would anyone not centre that?

The nuance is that sex is binary. Single sex services and spaces are based off the need for the sex class of women to have safety, privacy and dignity from the sex class of men.

We are all very happy for binary gender roles to fuck right off. But that doesn’t change the above.

In what way does that need to be more nuanced?