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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

For the Attention of Posters in the "bloody terf" thread

706 replies

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 24/10/2021 18:04

So we can stop disrupting the OP's thread, and continue the discussion here.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/10/2021 09:02

Because... this discussion was specifically about toilets for a good couple pages now? And now you seem to be suddenly changing the subject?

Because you made it so. I agree, more inconvenient examples of the effects of poor policy making on women exist.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 25/10/2021 09:05

Something for everyone to read

culturallyboundgender.wordpress.com/2015/05/20/to-be-different-from-other-girls-on-misogyny-inside-and-out/

OP posts:
Alltheprettyseahorses · 25/10/2021 09:06

Why should transpeople get to use the toilet they choose as opposed to the one provided for their sex? What on earth are all these demands?

I'm starting to think we've long gone from normal transpeople in everyday life to creating a sacred caste who must be loved, centred, worshipped, whatever other bizarre proclamations certain politicians come out with. This means many who are not trans try to piggyback because it feeds their ego, facilitates bullying, makes them feel less inadequate or is a magic word that means they get what they want when they want. A lot of what's going on now is entitled people having a tantrum when they realise rules apply to them too. That's where non-binary comes into it, trans is too much effort so just come up with a state of being that makes you more special than anyone else but where you don't have to buy a new outfit.

MildredsMussaurus · 25/10/2021 09:08

I have read the whole thread. I have a genuine question for the posters who believe gender identity and including trans women as women is the best way forward. To those posters - I will try my best to use your language so I can communicate this.

If we classify by gender identity, the term 'cis woman' doesn't cover everyone who has female biology. The term 'woman' includes people who do not have female biology, and excludes those afab who do not identify as women, whether they be non-binary, transmen or have another gender identity.

What word are we to use for people who have female biology, when we are talking about issues that affect all people who have female biology, and exclusively people who have female biology?

(I have tried my best, and still feel like you might even take issue with 'people with female biology'.)

For example

  • healthcare in general
  • pregnancy and birth
  • breastfeeding
  • abortion
  • miscarriage
  • menstruation

Is there one term we can use for all the relevant human people in these situations?

Also, as a slight aside, I understand that many young afab non-binary and trans people do not wish to be associated with the terms female and woman. I still think that there should be a term that includes all people with female biology, because those issues can and very likely will affect them in future. I think it's important that they understand our commonalities and be able to opt back in if (like me) they realise the importance/significance of their sexed body as they get older.

Gncq · 25/10/2021 09:08

So a TRA takeaway-

The word "woman" is just a word, if you choose to use it as your identity then you are one, it's not based on biology or stereotypes, or anything at all in fact. But the word means SO MUCH to some, they'll commit suicide en mass if they can't use it and will harass and intimidate women over the use of the word, despite not having a definition for it.

GC women arguing for third spaces for mixed sex, eg an open sports category (recently talked about at length by a very well known GC feminist Dr Williams) while also keeping same sex spaces for those who want/need them, are transphobic bigots. TRA believe ALL spaces should be mixed sex, but those that are designated male/female should be done so on the basis of chosen identity, so they're both still mixed sex, but you use either one based on what you believe about your gender identity.

Repeated comparisons of homophobic rhetoric with what GC arguments, whilst being in complete denial as to how deeply and utterly homophobic (and misogynistic) the gender ideology movement is.

Repeated use of insults in place of actual arguments. Repeated use of twisting the words that other people have said in place of actual arguments.
Bullying, check. Dominance displays, check. Dismissal of women, check. Envy of women, check. Lack of knowledge of the GC point of view, check.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 25/10/2021 09:13

Something that SpookySeason77 should definitely read.

liberationcollective.wordpress.com/2012/06/08/a-feminist-critique-of-cisgender/

OP posts:
ChewtonRoad · 25/10/2021 09:18

I love that today’s teens are less ‘binary’ in many many ways, and I have optimism we might land in a less extreme place that is healthier in the long run.
If nonbinary means that one claims to be neither female nor male (although it's impossible to opt out of the reality of one's physical body), then what in the name of sanity makes that a "healthy" place?

Joan can claim to be nonbinary as can James, but Joan will be a woman and James a man throughout their lives no matter the thoughts or feelings. Human sex is binary, period.

Not wishing to adhere to the idiotic gender stereotypes does not make one nonbinary, it's an acknowledgement that those stereotypes are pointless (and many of them harmful to women), but again the reality of one's body will remain.

Also huge safety problems around safety of trans people born female who do not pass using male bathrooms I should think.
If by this you mean transmen, then as they are natal women they are welcome to use women's toilets and other women's single sex spaces.

It goes without saying that the "huge safety problems" for people "born female" (that is, observed female at birth) are by no means limited to transmen, but that's another discussion.

Gncq · 25/10/2021 09:21

^ I posted too soon nevermind too much, but more takeaway-

TRA "it's bigoted/'phobic etc to tell someone else how they identify, you cis people"
GC "cis is offensive, reasons, please don't tell me how I identify"
TRA "you cis bigot"

Anyway I'm going out now.

ArabellaScott · 25/10/2021 10:10

Toilets seem, in this discussion, to have become a flashpoint.

I think that is because they are quite a clear illustration of some of the issues. The smallest rooms as a microcosm of the debate over single sex spaces.

So, we have venues that have toilet facilities. Two rooms, one with a picture of a stick figure wearing a skirt. One with a picture of a stick figure wearing trousers.

Society reduces 'gender' to this image, oversimplified to the point of absurdity. Men can wear skirts, women can wear trousers. It's a good illustration of how basic 'gender' and stereotypes are. A form of cultural shorthand. Whole university departments are set up to argue about the mapping of gender onto sex, the effects of this, the potential damage, how to address inequities, whether it's a skirt or a cape, etc.

What the signs signify, though, and what is inside each of those respective rooms, is less lofty and intellectual. It becomes rather basic about human mammalian plumbing. Yes, biologically based.

Males, with penises, can pee standing up. They have the option of using urinals, troughs, or toilets. They can pee anywhere! Lucky them! 'we just want to pee'. Fair enough.

They have no need for sanitary bins for disposal of bloody sanitary towels, tampons, etc. They are never going to deal with flooding, leaks, blood on hands, clothing or legs. They are also never going to have the traumatic experience of miscarrying in a toilet. Males are also less likely to suffer incontinence, higher in females due to women's different biological characteristics and life experiences.

Women can only really use a toilet. These take up more space and use more water. They need access to secure sanitary bins and the ability to wash their hands in private. Most women prefer to be in a single sex space for toileting for this reason.

Women are overwhelmingly the primary care givers with responsibility for small children, so need extra space and provision for this. Due to cultural prejudices, many breastfeeding mothers choose to feed their infants in toilets.

There is also the very clear safety issue.

Women have traditionally used female toilets as a place of escape - where males are culturally prohibited from entering. This is because females are at more risk from males due to males' statistically being more violent, larger and stronger than females. Women are at risk from male violence, including sexual assault.

This is not a cultural interpretation or academic theory. This is all basic fact, evidenced overwhelmingly clearly by statistics.

It's also backed up by millenia of evolved instincts, but that's another subject. Suffice to say females are better at identifying sex than males for very good reasons.

Women were not 'granted' public conveniences until relatively recently. This is the 'urinary leash' - it wasn't considered necessary to allow women to participate in public life to the extent they should have provision of facilities. Women fought hard for public toilets for their dignity, privacy and ability to participate in society.

Women need more space, more provision, more facilities, for all the reasons listed above.

Yet in so many cases, it is the women's toilets that accumulate all the other 'genders' and are signed for 'all genders' or pressured to include males who identify as women, and/or non-binary people.

For the above very clear reasons, women need toilets that exclude all males. For 'toilets' read 'single sex spaces'.

Women exist. It doesn't matter what you do to language, or theory, or the signs on the toilet doors. We still piss out of our urethras, bleed out of our vaginas, birth babies out of our bodies, and face all the messy, sometimes inconvenient issues relating to our sexed biology. Gender is the blue blood on the sanitary towel advert. Sex is the bodily fluid you need to actually deal with in real life.

I know it sounds a little distasteful, and it's nicer to talk about 'gender' as some kind of malleable, fluid, imaginary dream with optional variations and special flags.

But women will still always have female bodies, with all that entails. Sex matters.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/10/2021 10:18

Women exist. It doesn't matter what you do to language, or theory, or the signs on the toilet doors. We still piss out of our urethras, bleed out of our vaginas, birth babies out of our bodies, and face all the messy, sometimes inconvenient issues relating to our sexed biology. Gender is the blue blood on the sanitary towel advert. Sex is the bodily fluid you need to actually deal with in real life.

Great analogy, Arabella!

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 25/10/2021 10:19

I'm literally a woman. By your definition. I don't see how trans women also being women forces anything on me.

But spooky, if you are literally a woman then I (and most women) are literally not. I can see it's problematic for you, but there actually is no definition of woman you can suggest which encompasses both you and me. For me it was, and always will be, about natal biology. It's not whether someone has changed their external appearance and it's not about a sense of identity. I get that it is for you and I do respect your right to see things differently. But if we accept your definition of woman then it is one which applies mainly to transwomen and to a few non-feminist (whether they know it or not) natal women. I have commonality of experience with you as a human being, as I do with all men. But I have no more commonality of experience with a trans woman than I do a man. Sadly, I think you are chasing a rainbow. I think this might be at the root of your aggressive responses to those who disagree with you. You can only feel comfortable in your sense of identity as a woman if others believe the same about woman being only a state of mind. Hence it's really threatening for you when we say it is a state of natal biology.

MildredsMussaurus · 25/10/2021 10:25

I think spooky is saying she's biologically female/cis woman? The previous poster (sillystring) was a trans woman?

BloodinGutters · 25/10/2021 10:27

Does spookystrings know what they is saying?

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 25/10/2021 10:29

Ah, I thought they were the same person. If spooky is not silly and is indeed an xx chromosome person then I would amend my statement to refer to transwomen instead of spooky directly. I guess that shows some of the confusion though - what does 'literally a woman' mean when we have such a nebulous definition of woman?

Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 25/10/2021 10:30

Gender is the blue blood on the sanitary towel advert. Sex is the bodily fluid you need to actually deal with in real life.

Oh my god, YES!!!

MildredsMussaurus · 25/10/2021 10:30

I feel like we're talking two different languages. Changing the meaning of 'woman' like this means I don't know whether spooky is literally a woman same as me, or a trans woman who by her definition is a woman same as me. But I think she means the former. I was just wondering if it's worth getting an interpreter in so every post can be in both languages for better communication...

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 25/10/2021 10:31

Just to clarify for spooky too - what you are forcing on people is an identity. That happens when you call us cis. We've already discussed the definition of that and it clearly (according to stonewall) is about identity. So if you respect everyone's right to self-identify, you need to accept that most xx people are not women as per this new definition. Every time you call someone cis you are forcing things on them (except the rare times when people self-identify as cis of course).

NotterOtter · 25/10/2021 10:43

If membership to a sex class is defined by gametes, then someone who produces neither belongs in neither..

It's true that humans are mammals. Mammals gestate their offspring and give birth vaginally, they produce milk for said offspring.

Females (adult women) that cannot gestate young and give birth to live offspring and produce milk, are still mammals and still human. They just have a medical condition.

Similarly, an elephant has a trunk. If they are born without one, it's because they have a medical issue/anomoly. They are still an elephant, just one with a condition.

Humans walk on two legs. A human with one leg is still a human.

LoislovesStewie · 25/10/2021 10:54

If I decided tomorrow that I was a man would I be?
Would natal men be happy with me using their facilities, (loos, changing rooms etc)?
Would they be unhappy with a person who clearly has a biologically female body stripping off in their presence?
I genuinely think men would not be happy with it and would come to the realization that their own lives were shrinking in order to accommodate a person who is clearly not male.
The point is women aren't forcing their ideas on men, this argument is totally about biological men, yet again forcing their beliefs on women.

NoNotMeNoSiree · 25/10/2021 10:56

@Sonex

Just catching up on this thread and lolling at the men that find it astounding that a woman would have spare pants on them. I carry a pair in my handbag at all times! LIke many women. See this is the thing, these entitled men think they know what it is to be a woman and think they are performing it. But they really haven't got a clue what being a woman actually entails. Because it's rooted in female biology, which they don't have.
Is that in response to my post? I'm not a man. I'm a woman, by your definition and everything Now I'm '' lolling'' at the' 'must be a man!' ' brigade has shown up. Hmm
ArabellaScott · 25/10/2021 11:05

academic.oup.com/edrv/article/42/3/219/6159361

'Sex is an important biological variable that must be considered in the design and analysis of human and animal research. The terms sex and gender should not be used interchangeably. Sex is dichotomous, with sex determination in the fertilized zygote stemming from unequal expression of sex chromosomal genes. By contrast, gender includes perception of the individual as male, female, or other, both by the individual and by society; both humans and animals have sex, but only humans have gender. '

From the journal of the Endocrine Society, who seemed to have deemed it necessary to clarify that humans are dichotomously sexed mammals. That is to say: there are only two sexes, male and female.

MonsignorMirth · 25/10/2021 11:09

There's only one poster afaik that has to talk about a "must be a man brigade" on every thread they post on, as soon as the word "man" is mentioned. Usually to turn the discussion into "what FWR posters are like" rather than articulating what they think about the actual issues raised or responding to questions. Lol!

Sonex · 25/10/2021 11:19

Indeed. Nobody else knows, or cares, whether posters are male, female, men or women, self identified or original stylee - and how could they anyway when we know people lie and many are deluded to the point of believing lies - because they actually only care about the issues and points raised. Hence my amusement at someone not understanding, or pretending to not understand, why biological women often carry a change of pants around and why they might want privacy in female-only spaces.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 25/10/2021 11:23

Hmm I am not leaving blood to set on any clothing to suit someone's disingenuous convenience, unless they're going to be getting the bloodstains out for me.

If not, then I will crack on with spare underwear and rinsing any bloodstains out in the sink, as befits an adult who learns from mistakes and can't buy new clothes every month.

Deal with it.

OP posts:
AlfonsoTheUnrepetant · 25/10/2021 11:33

Also huge safety problems around safety of trans people born female who do not pass using male bathrooms I should think.

I have never seen a GC person argue that transmen should not access women's spaces. Indeed, it's always been the opposite - that they are welcome.