For the Attention of Posters in the "bloody terf" thread

[PurgatoryOfPotholes]

So we can stop disrupting the OP's thread, and continue the discussion here.

How would you know, though?
Many trans men pass.
You can't '' always tell. ''
Or are we back to policing/judging how women '' should'' look again?

How would you know, though?Many trans men pass.You can't '' always tell. ''Or are we back to policing/judging how women '' should'' look again?

So what's the problem, if they pass they will prefer to use gent's, if they don't and they're afraid to go in the gent's , they can use the ladies?

The ones that pass are in the vast, vast minority. if you are a biological woman and you don't know that then, frankly, I don't believe you are. And it's not only about transwomen. I don't want biological men in the toilets at work while I'm having a miscarriage either, nor did I want the creepy ones that tried to spike my drinks in clubs following me into the female toilets there either.

Same with transmen, who I'm happy to share single sex spaces with.

@NoNotMeNoSiree

How would you know, though? Many trans men pass. You can't '' always tell. '' Or are we back to policing/judging how women '' should'' look again?

What transmen do is up to them. I'm not going to be authoritarian and tell them to use the women's.

I am under the impression they wish to live as men, and use the men's facilities. If men have a problem with that, it's for them to say.

It's not safe for transmen to be placed in the men's prison estate and afaik, they aren't.

This is a feminism forum. It is not the "how do we protect men from [insert here]?" forum.

If you want a discussion of how men feel about transmen, go to pistonheads.

This always inevitably boils down to the same thing.

Activist - Male born trans people have lots of serious issues and strong feelings and vulnerabilities and needs.

Women - we see that.

Activist - Those needs can only be met by removing women's sex based rights and spaces entirely.

Women - no, that's not true, they could be met in other ways. This approach you want does not work for women, largely because they have their own serious issues and strong feelings and vulnerabilities and needs -

Activists - but those don't matter! That's bigotry and outdated wrong think

Women - hang on - they matter for people born male, and female people should totally be very concerned about male people suffering them, but are wrong and bigoted for female people and female people need to shut up, put up and get over it? That's as sexist as all fuck, how can you justify that?

Activist- whole lot of confustication, obfuscation, if you say no to TW you'll have TM in your loos and whatever happens you can't get away from male presenting people so nyer, and you're going to get raped anyway, and you're all old and will be dead soon, and a new age will come where much better women take over from you lot who don't have boundaries and don't want sex based rights or want to have needs met that get in male people's way.

Women - this is sexism on crack. Besides, even if you get over the whole safety issue, there are far more females with faith, culture, disability, trauma etc based needs protected under the act who cannot use mixed sex spaces than there are male people wanting to be in female spaces. Obviously we can't deprive a lot of females of any provision or space or resources to give male people their preferred choice because inclusion, equality and access and the Equality Act is supposed to matter, you keep shouting about how much they do.

Activist - those women don't exist and if they do their needs are out dated and wrong and basically they're going to have to deal with male need coming first or be excluded.

Women - look. We just need third spaces. That would be answers that work for everyone, everyone's feelings and needs met equally, no winners, no losers, actual diversity. It's easy.

Activists - No.

Women - ffs.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

This is a feminism forum. It is not the "how do we protect men from [insert here]?" forum.

If you want a discussion of how men feel about transmen, go to pistonheads.

P.S. when you do go to Pistonheads, make sure to ask them about this.

extract

The plaintiff [Rufus West] alleges that in 1995 he embraced Islam. He states that Islamic law prohibits him from exposing his nakedness to anyone except his wife. The plaintiff also states that under Islamic law, "males and females are identified and determined by the sex that Allah (i.e., the Creator) created them with at birth." …

The plaintiff says that on July 2, 2016, after a visit with a friend, he went to the strip search area to be strip searched under a policy that requires all prisoners to submit to a strip-search after a contact visit. Several officers were conducting strip searches.

According to the plaintiff, when it was his turn to be strip searched, defendant Buhle, a female correctional officer, approached him and ordered him to strip. The plaintiff states that he asked defendant Buhle how she was able to do that and she responded, "I'm a dude." The plaintiff says he looked at the other correctional officers, "to see if this was a prank," but that they avoided eye contact with him. He alleges that at this point, he "started to panic because he knew that Officer Buhle was a female based on her female features (breasts, face, voice and demeanor) and that exposing his nakedness to her would be in violation of his Islamic beliefs ….

The plaintiff indicates that "[i]t was later brought to [his] attention that Officer Buhle is a female claiming to be a male and therefore is afforded all of the duties that the male officers perform without discrimination."

The plaintiff alleges that in anticipation of another encounter with defendant Buhle, he wrote defendants [GBCI Security Director John Kind and GBCI Warden Scott Eckstein] and requested an "[e]xemption from exposing my nakedness to the opposite sex … because it is against Islam." On July 12, 2016, defendant Eckstein allegedly denied the plaintiff's request: "I have reviewed your correspondence and have also discussed your concerns with our Security Director. I have reviewed the situation and the officer in question is a male and is qualified to complete these duties. If in the future you are directed to submit to a strip search by this individual or any other male staff member it is my expectation that you will comply."

The plaintiff alleges that in his denial of the plaintiff's request, defendant Kind stated, "This person is a male and any further issues on this will result in discipline for you." …

"RLUIPA prohibits prisons receiving federal funds from imposing a substantial burden on an inmate's religious exercise unless prison officials can demonstrate `that imposition of the burden on that person (1) is in furtherance of a compelling governmental interest; and (2) is the least restrictive means of furthering that compelling governmental interest.'" Assuming that GBCI receives federal funds, the plaintiff has alleged that Buhle, Kind and Eckstein imposed a substantial burden on his First Amendment free exercise rights.

He has also alleged that there was no compelling government interest in having Buhle search him, or observe the search; there were male officers available in the strip search area. The plaintiff may proceed on his RLUIPA claim against Buhle, Kind and Eckstein.

reason.com/volokh/2018/08/15/muslim-male-inmate-objects-to-strip-sear/

Spot on Artichoke. Like a one act play.

There's only one poster afaik that has to talk about a "must be a man brigade

Oh. Yes. Of course

And if I ask for a female health care professional then I want one who has XX chromosomes and the accompanying female genitalia. I suspect if I requested that then I would be transphobic, and my dignity or wishes would be ignored.

Precisely right, Artichoke.

If people consistently and respectfully stuck to spaces for their own sex (when these are segregated) then no-one would question a masculine looking person in the ladies'.
The fact that tons of people have explicitly said biological males are going to go in there regardless and there's nothing you can do about it - might make people more attentive to the appearance of their fellow loo-user.

Monsignor
Oh no, no don't forget about the well known frequent situation where nasty t**f bigots are always chasing butch lesbians out of the ladies loos because they look too masculine, and making them cry.

Same sex spaces are a literal impossibility I tell you.

I'm famous!

No-one on Twitter seems to want to describe what it's a social category of, beyond declaring it a category. Sadly.

twitter.com/setoacnna/status/1452578446501158915?t=qH712jF5OFrIDMroRPZDEg&s=19

Fortunately, SillyStrings423 explained. It's sex-based pronouns and whether your forename is more usually a female name or a male name, according to SillyStrings.

I’m a femme lesbian who carries spare tampons because it’s prudent. I’ve given these to butch friends and lovers caught short or unexpected Many times. It seems very normal. I carry extra knickers because it’s convenient, but would never rinse out in a multi stall women’s restroom.

AFAIR, the Scottish gov are in accord with SillyStrings. To obtain a GRC one requires to provide bills in a name commonly associated with the appropriate sex.

Jo, Charlie, Sam, Jean and Mo should manage this with the greatest of ease.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

I'm famous!

No-one on Twitter seems to want to describe what it's a social category of, beyond declaring it a category. Sadly.

twitter.com/setoacnna/status/1452578446501158915?t=qH712jF5OFrIDMroRPZDEg&s=19

Fortunately, SillyStrings423 explained. It's sex-based pronouns and whether your forename is more usually a female name or a male name, according to SillyStrings.

The few replies I can see... they are really, really stumped aren't they. .

All they have are mocking and faux superiority "oh we're toooo clever to explain it to the stoopids".

No wonder teenagers are so attracted to this movement. You get to pretend to be oh so veh clever without actually knowing or understanding anything.

Just to be clear, when I used the word ‘binary’ upthread, I meant in the sense discussions and views had become very binary. As in polarised and concrete. I was trying to make the point that some posters need to try and address the grey areas. Because there are grey areas. (And I know even saying that is taboo here). That doesn’t mean budging an inch on safety or safeguarding or research or open dialog. Or on calling down unacceptable behaviour…
In terms of youth becoming ‘less binary’, I meant in stereotyped expression. Teens that I know are much more able to dress how they want and conform less to stereotypes, regardless of how labelled this is just now, and for many it’s really healthy. For many it’s playing with identity in the way teens always have.( I do understand the risks) That’s all I meant. Nuance in that it’s, well, complicated.
And perhaps the young people will find a way through this mess that’s healthy. but I really am beginning to see from the responses I got (when I’m very gender ideology critical in my views) how tricky it must be for someone who buys into gender ideology to even hear what is being said if it’s said so aggressively. I’ve never felt unlistened to on MN really, and maybe I used the wrong terminology, or said things not totally clearly, but I now understand, even when I agree with you lot on the whole, why it’s called an echo chamber here, and my equally gender critical friends won’t come near these discussion boards. It’s a scary place. It’s sad, but I’m going to step away and just stick to real life discussions, where I imagine if I met you lot we wouldn’t shout each other down or even disagree much. Such is social media I guess!
Anyway, hastily posted (while I wait for my gender critical, gay, non conforming, teen son coming out of his audition). So apologies again if I’ve been unclear.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

I'm famous!

No-one on Twitter seems to want to describe what it's a social category of, beyond declaring it a category. Sadly.

twitter.com/setoacnna/status/1452578446501158915?t=qH712jF5OFrIDMroRPZDEg&s=19

Fortunately, SillyStrings423 explained. It's sex-based pronouns and whether your forename is more usually a female name or a male name, according to SillyStrings.

Congratulations! I went over to Twitter to see the responses. They were underwhelming.

[quote PurgatoryOfPotholes]I campaigned for the legalisation of same-sex marriage. It did not lead to women being raped in prison, which is probably why I campaigned for it.

(Photo courtesy of WA Department of Corrections)

BYDORI MONSON SHOW
Weekdays on KIRO Radio 12pm-3pm

A half dozen men have been transferred to theWashington Correctional Center for Woman, according to an employee at the facility.

The employee tellsKIRO Radio’s Dori Monson Showthat the women’s facility in Pierce County has adopted the practice of allowing a transfer for any person who identifies as female. Those transfers are being housing in the general population with female cellmates, the employee says.

When reached for comment, the women’s correctional center neither confirmed nor denied the details in the email Dori shared with them from the anonymous employee.

“We are not able to share any specific information about allegations, reviews, and cases,” the DOC said.

The department also declined a request for an interview.

The concern among staff and inmates is a risk of sexual assault. The employee cites a recent incident in which an inmate from a male facility raped a female in the women’s prison upon arrival. The transferred inmate, according to the employee, is incarcerated for a sex offense and has “fully functional male genitalia, a history of violence and sexual depravity in the community, and has been found guilty of sexual assault against other inmates while housed in the men’s facilities.”

“He is a proven sexual predator, having committed multiple crimes against women, yet the State of Washington had no problem moving him into a women’s facility and housing him with the most vulnerable in our population (our mental health unit),” the employee wrote.

“Word of the incident has inevitably traveled throughout the facility, causing much concern amongst both inmates and staff,” the employee said. “It demonstrated the state’s willingness to put the most vulnerable of our population in harm’s way, by locking them in a cell with a proven predator, with zero accountability or repercussions for the perpetrator.”

Among the inmates transferred to the women’s facility is Donna Perry, formerly known as Douglas Perry, who was convicted for killing three sex workers. Before being charged, Perryreportedly went to Thailandfor gender reassignment surgery. Prosecutors during the trial claimed that Perry had undergone the surgery to avoid suspicion for the killings.

Also recently transferred in was Hobby Bingham, now known as Princess Zoee Marie Andromeda Love, whowas convictedfor having sex with a 12-year-old girl. Bingham is alleged by the anonymous employee to have had sex with a female inmate at the women’s facility.

Continues: mynorthwest.com/2666243/doc-washington-correctional-center-women-men-transfer/[/quote]
Oh. My. God.

Anyone who ignores or dismisses the violent degradation of incarcerated vulnerable women whilst demanding capitulation to an ideology and feelings of identity is has a truly distorted and damaged sense of self and is another reason why segregation of humans via sex is imperative.

Anyone who can argue against this has a shocking disregard and pathological lack of empathy for other humans and in particular women and inflicts any resistance or disagreement upon themselves.

The TRAs have caused a lot of damage to old style transsexuals and reduced the tolerance and acceptance that was once afforded this section of society.
You should be ashamed of yourselves.

Anontwentyone

To be fair, I did originally ask it of SillyStrings in order to clarify Strings' point. How can people on Twitter see inside Strings' head to tell me what was meant?

MuthaFunka61 I completely agree.

@Sevensilverrings the only posters who replied directly to your post (or even mentioned nuances in passing) were @ChewtonRoad and @BloodinGutters, neither of whose post could be described as aggressive. In fact one of the posts asked you to further expand on points you made in your post (which you yourself said you had not been particularly clear on).

This board is (by necessity) a fairly polite board, particularly when compared to the AIBU board for example. Questioning yes, discussing, yes but you certainly weren't attacked. I do wonder your thoughts on the aggressive, rude posts by the TRA posters on this thread who have, (due to the rules of this board) been given a huge amount of latitude which wouldn't have been afforded the GC posters?