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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Harrop MPTS Hearing

986 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 19/10/2021 16:18

I thought this may be of interest:

www.mpts-uk.org/hearings-and-decisions/medical-practitioners-tribunals/dr-adrian-harrop-nov-21

The tribunal will inquire into the allegation that from 10 May 2018 to 23 November 2019, Dr Harrop inappropriately used his Twitter account to post tweets that were offensive and/or insulting and/or inappropriate in nature and some of which were intended to intimidate.

OP posts:
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MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 18/11/2021 09:13

Please stop answering questions about the golfer! While what she has already done is proven fact, drawing inferences about what she meant in any exchanges with AH is potentially defamatory.

Saying MissLucy ate all the cakes in the staff room is not defamatory if I have already been found guilty of it. Saying that MissLucy tweeting a photo of cakes, with a caption saying Yum and a wink emoji, means that I intend to do it again, could be defamatory.

The golfer is incredibly litigious, and may come after you personally (MN can potentially be forced to hand over your contact details) as well as MN.

It's all there on Twitter, for anyone who wants to know.

PronounssheRa · 18/11/2021 09:13

Thanks Motorina

I would anticipate at some point in all that there will be legal wranglings about what to do about the VICE article, but I am not even begin to guess how that will play out

That's was something of a curve ball wasn't it. I wonder if anything like it has happened before mid tribunal.

BoreOfWhabylon · 18/11/2021 09:14

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow

Please stop answering questions about the golfer! While what she has already done is proven fact, drawing inferences about what she meant in any exchanges with AH is potentially defamatory.

Saying MissLucy ate all the cakes in the staff room is not defamatory if I have already been found guilty of it. Saying that MissLucy tweeting a photo of cakes, with a caption saying Yum and a wink emoji, means that I intend to do it again, could be defamatory.

The golfer is incredibly litigious, and may come after you personally (MN can potentially be forced to hand over your contact details) as well as MN.

It's all there on Twitter, for anyone who wants to know.

This.
Motorina · 18/11/2021 09:27

I don't know if anyone's in touch with this twitter user twitter.com/selfcommit2othe

She's just posted an apology for how she's doing. I'm not on twitter, so can't reply directly. If anyone can please can you reassure her she's doing amazingly well to capture so much of the cross examination. I've done it, and it's actually incredibly hard to both listen and take comprehensive notes at the same time. Lawyers get formal training in how to do it. Please reassure her that there's nothing to apologise for - she's doing a fabulous job.

AlfonsoTheUnrepentant · 18/11/2021 09:27

Agreed. I once describe the litigious individual as "vile" and MN deleted the post.

AlfonsoTheUnrepentant · 18/11/2021 09:28

That was in response to the request to stop posting about the individual.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 18/11/2021 09:30

@Motorina

There's also the issue that, once in the professions, you're a high earner in a prestigious position, but one with a very limited skill set. So, if you realise a few years in it's not for you, it's really really hard to get out. There's nothing you can shift sideways in with your skill set which pays even half as much and, if by that stage, you've got a mortgage and 2.4 children you're effectively stuck.

The kindest thing, actually, is to weed out those for whom it isn't right at the earliest possible stage, so they can do something which is right for them. Healthcare - no matter which professional title - is actually a really weird way to learn a living. You're getting up close and personal with people's smelly bits, both literally and in terms of their lives and struggles. If you have a vocation for it it is the best thing ever. If you don't? It must be bloody awful.

Agree. The saddest thing at medical school was all the doctors' kids who had followed in their parents' footsteps, only to find that they didn't actually enjoy medicine. I have huge respect for the few who had the guts to walk away.

I think the US system, where most people do medicine as a post-graduate course, is better. You do some pre-med courses as an undergraduate, which give you a chance to assess whether medicine is for you and, if it isn't, you haven't lost anything - you still graduate with an undergraduate degree, and can then go on to a career in something else.

It's not just being up close and personal with smelly bits of life that's difficult - I think a lot of doctors and nurses are quite traumatised by seeing death and suffering at a young age with inadequate psychological support. I reckon that I have seen at least 2000 people die, often in traumatic circumstances (because I work in urgent care) and I have to carry on straightaway afterwards. That takes a toll now; it was even harder when I was 23.

Personwithrage · 18/11/2021 09:30

There's an interesting article (in relation to medicine) about poor performance as a student and how it is linked to later concerns over practice somewhere.

It's pretty clear as I remember and yet many universities do struggle to weed out those that they know will likely falter. Is it because it's a university course first and foremost and therefore all the uni mitigations and accomodations and allowances apply equally to a course in medicine as they do to English lit?

BettyFilous · 18/11/2021 09:37

Agree. The saddest thing at medical school was all the doctors' kids who had followed in their parents' footsteps, only to find that they didn't actually enjoy medicine. I have huge respect for the few who had the guts to walk away.

One of my friends has doctor parents, had a med school place and the required grades for her offer but had the strength to pull out at the 11th hour and get a place in Clearing for a completely different course. She says she’s never regretted her decision.

Effzeh · 18/11/2021 09:41

@Personwithrage

There's an interesting article (in relation to medicine) about poor performance as a student and how it is linked to later concerns over practice somewhere.

It's pretty clear as I remember and yet many universities do struggle to weed out those that they know will likely falter. Is it because it's a university course first and foremost and therefore all the uni mitigations and accomodations and allowances apply equally to a course in medicine as they do to English lit?

It's become harder in all fields to fail students - it's a financially-driven, bums-on-seats calculation for university management, made worse by the massive increase in the ligitious, I-know-my-rights, students (and their parents) as consumers mindset.
Needmoresleep · 18/11/2021 09:43

Motorina and Fannycam, there are all sorts of things happening, often unintended results from well meaning equality initiatives.

First selection is increasingly by UCAT score. If you want to get into medical school you are probably better off sitting in your bedroom practicing timed tests (One of DDs peers did this daily for six months and got 98% and four offers) than, say, volunteering with the St John's ambulance.

Second, students have a lot of power. Some have become serial complainants, and will launch formal complaints to counter any attempt at picking them up. No Clinical Training Fellow or consultant wants the bother of a complaint so they will stay well clear even if behaviour, often attendance, falls short of what should be required. More unusual, inappropriate behaviour, presumably is even harder to pick up and evidence, though in a larger year group there are bound to be one or two students who are odd and who may well have problems gaining patient confidence. A deep ingrained misogyny for example, and that can happen, for example with students from more patriarchal cultures.

Third, so much teaching now happens on placement that students are hard to track. A student may be late consistently through the year, but different staff members are hearing reasonable sounding excuses for the first time so don't escalate.

Fourth, I agree that with the emphasis on grades, UCAT and the respectability of the profession, many students really don't know that medicine involves a lot of bodily fluids and a very diverse patient population. Hence some very high drop out rates from the more academic universities to banking, law etc.

I hope that the ultimate objective of this hearing is to determine whether AH is able to generate patient trust and is therefore competent to be in his profession. I, personally, would not sign on his list because of behavioural and data concerns.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 18/11/2021 09:46

Is it because it's a university course first and foremost and therefore all the uni mitigations and accomodations and allowances apply equally to a course in medicine as they do to English lit?

I'm not involved in education, so can't answer about how mitigations apply. However, one of the issues is that academic performance isn't necessarily a predictor who will struggle as a doctor. You don't actually need to be that academic to be a doctor and half (at least!) of what you learn in med school is of no day to day relevance to your work.

So someone can do brilliantly academically, and still be entirely unsuited to be a doctor. Conversely, many people who fail exams at med school will go on to be excellent doctors. Really, the weeding out should be of people with the wrong personality traits or lack of emotional resilience but - of course - that's incredibly hard. And who would you pick in practice? A lot of the doctors who struggle most are high-achieving, highly motivated women who will be excellent doctors to their patients, but who will go under emotionally because they cannot cope with the mismatch between patient need and what they are able to offer.

MidsomerMurmurs · 18/11/2021 09:54

he just wants to go out in a blaze of glory and be a martyr to the wonderful cause of righteousness and glory

I do wonder if that's what the Vice interview was all about. I think AH sees himself as this:
Jon Bon Jovi - Blaze of Glory

But in reality it's more like this:
Bon Jovi - It's My Life (shred)

Jeeeez · 18/11/2021 10:02

I have passed on Mumsnet posters' praise and thanks to @selfcommit2others for tweeting yesterday. She was very surprised and delighted

ExceptionalAssurance · 18/11/2021 10:03

Hearing has started and almost immediately adjourned.

RocketPanda · 18/11/2021 10:06

Back when AH was only starting to be noticed by posters here I said he was trying to become the next TV Doctor.
His chickens have well and truly come home to roost. His misogyny is laid bare for all to see.

RocketPanda · 18/11/2021 10:07

Adjourned? Why?

Jeeeez · 18/11/2021 10:10

Has started again. Was I think adjourned to discuss Vice article and how to cross examine on this once cross examination has started and AH cannot talk to his lawyers until finished

Mummyoflittledragon · 18/11/2021 10:14

@Fariha31
I totally agree with you. Was not trying to state I did not.

The cross examination on the Vice article could prove interesting, I imagine! Oops… think he may have slipped on his banana skin there.

Shortpoet · 18/11/2021 10:16

His defence seems to be it was just lighthearted bants.

Which could possibly work if he hadn’t carried on after two warnings.

RocketPanda · 18/11/2021 10:16

Bet he's going to have memory problems.

Shortpoet · 18/11/2021 10:18

…And given a recent press interview saying he wanted to silence the other side and that he will win.

MonsignorMirth · 18/11/2021 10:19

I didn't name anyone but have requested my post be deleted. Suggest people Google the names of anyone they want to know about - there's much more out there than I posted!

mammajustkilledagnat · 18/11/2021 10:23

Oh, it's OK MonsignorMirth he's just stated 'Only ppl in the world who can piece together the Wentworth is a very oblique ref would be either E herself or anyone who already aware'

Beowulfa · 18/11/2021 10:26

Very interesting side notes about the difficulty of failing weak students. When I was at university (red brick, late 90s) a good friend was starting Medicine. In her first month they did full-on anatomy with dissection of human remains, with an emphasis on "this is the human body, get used to it." They were also given some blunt stats on the numbers of people that would likely die on their watch through their exhaustion/inexperience as junior doctors.

I was at university just before Blair brought fees in. It would be fascinating to see a study of course materials, failure rates, type of assessment etc in certain subjects before and after universities became businesses.

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