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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Harrop MPTS Hearing

986 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 19/10/2021 16:18

I thought this may be of interest:

www.mpts-uk.org/hearings-and-decisions/medical-practitioners-tribunals/dr-adrian-harrop-nov-21

The tribunal will inquire into the allegation that from 10 May 2018 to 23 November 2019, Dr Harrop inappropriately used his Twitter account to post tweets that were offensive and/or insulting and/or inappropriate in nature and some of which were intended to intimidate.

OP posts:
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Motorina · 17/11/2021 21:59

@Terfydactyl

Does it help if I say it's normal for witness statements to be included in full (less agreed redactions) in the evidence bundle, and for them to form part of the evidence

I think my query is in the material used for a tribunal limited to just those who will be witnesses. Or will the likes of my and others original complaint also be in the bundle. I realise no one may know and I have a message in and waiting on a response. But I would feel better if my complaint was never seen by the panel or AH or anyone associated with.

Ahhhh, I think I understand what you're asking.

I have seen the following types of witness statements are included in the evidence bundle.

  1. Witness statements from people who give evidence on oath. So I would expect there to be witness statements from Harrop, and from anyone else Harrop calls in his defence.
  1. Witness statements from people who have information relevant to the charges but where it's agreed there's no need for them to give evidence. In this case, somewhat astonishingly, that includes all the GMC witnesses. I would expect there to be a statement from each of them in the bundle. More normally, it's people who's evidence is uncontroversial. For example, if there is a charge of "failure to respond to letters from the GMC" there may be a witness statement from some junior legal assistant in the GMC who's statement is "I checked the file. We sent letters one to six on these dates. Here are copies of the letters."
  1. Witness statements from people who have relevant information but who are unavailable to give evidence, for example because they are very seriously unwell or have died. There may be argument from the other side about whether these should be shown to the panel, because the lawyers have no way of challenging or testing them through cross examination. There may also be argument about how seriously the panel should take them, given the person who's statement it is is not there to answer questions.

Sometimes the initial complaint is in the bundle, and sometimes it isn't. There doesn't seem to be much logic to whether it's there or not.

I would not expect to see the complaints made about concerns unrelated to the allegations to be in the bundle. I think the defence would argue that that was unfair. That including them could prejudice the panel against him by including criticisms which aren't relevent to the charges.

However... I know that there's an 'unused evidence' bundle which the defence get given by the GMC. That's in case there's any material which came about in the GMC investigation which they don't want to use to pursue their case, but which the defence might choose to use. Everything - used or not - gets sent to the defence in case it's of relevance to them. I simply don't know whether that might include other complaints made. The panel will never get to see this material, because it's not relevant to the charges.

Sorry, I know that's half an answer at best.

BreadInCaptivity · 17/11/2021 22:08

I find it unbelievable that AH didn't understand the SM policy.

I'm in a field where what I post online absolutely reflects on my professional practice and the guidelines/standards on SM are very explicit and we are absolutely expected to be knowledgeable about them.

Even on a format where I don't state my profession and that I'm posting in a personal capacity doesn't/wouldn't cut any ice if I post outside those professional standards of conduct.

Whilst it can be frustrating at times I absolutely understand why that is what is required of me.

I can't be in a situation where it might appear that my personal GC beliefs/opinions could compromise the trust in the services my profession provides - even if I would never allow this to be the case (and to be very clear I would not).

AH still can't seem to fathom, how his opinions might adversely impact the willingness/trust in people served by his practice who feel differently and the interview in Vice confirms this.

Needmoresleep · 17/11/2021 22:09

As a layperson with no knowledge of the procedures, my instinct with this latest news, would be to want a psychiatrist report with relevant fitness to practice recommendations.

My concern would be that the hostility conveyed in the tweets, whether within or without policy, plus the arrogance and lack of contrition shown in the interview, with or without any breach of confidentiality suggests that there could be something fundamentally awry.

I would then be thinking about what ifs. What if Posie Parker or a strong woman of the sort that seems to arouse this hostility were to become his patient. What if there were future issues around diagnosis at the gender clinic he works at, with a young de-transitioner saying that the doctor responsible for the original treatment had been very focussed on transition and perhaps had not given sufficient weight to other options.

Giving an interview at this point is bonkers. It raises red flags. If I were a naturally cautious member of a panel, I would be very worried about the seeming lack of contrition and of common sense about how to conduct yourself when facing serious, career threatening, charges. (Don't forget the two written warnings which seem to have been largely ignored.) I would not want someone like that back without reassurance and without confidence that they intended to change their behaviour. The article suggest that a slap on the wrist might simply give confidence that earlier behaviours were acceptable.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 17/11/2021 22:12

"you won't win"

Is that a retort to Posie's "I never lose"?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 17/11/2021 22:20

(Don't forget the two written warnings which seem to have been largely ignored.) I would not want someone like that back without reassurance and without confidence that they intended to change their behaviour. The article suggest that a slap on the wrist might simply give confidence that earlier behaviours were acceptable.

This is his advice to a fellow colleague after one or both of those warnings.

Harrop MPTS Hearing
Mollyollydolly · 17/11/2021 22:21

Yes, they probably only get a response once in a blue moon and today they've probably had hundreds. Lots of people complained about Harrop.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 17/11/2021 22:25

I find it unbelievable that AH didn't understand the SM policy

I don’t think anyone believes he didn’t understand it. The question is more whether he could plausibly pretend that he didn’t (pre-warnings), and use this as mitigation.

2Rebecca · 17/11/2021 22:42

The most unpleasant TRAs I know aren't trans. They are usually male gay or sometimes straight or bi "allies" who see trans rights as a religion they can be martyrs for and portray themselves as virtuous saints against the evil heretics. Harrop fits this profile as does Owen Jones, Kirsty Blackman and people I know without such a high public profile. Few trans people do the self glorification witch hunting thing to the same extent. Why are these people so invested in this?

BoreOfWhabylon · 17/11/2021 22:48

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet

Asked what he would like to say to the gender critics and transphobes who may read this, Harrop paused for a moment, before calmly and confidently responding, "you will not win".

It's all a little bit David Brent isn't it? Grin

A David Brent / Prince Edward mashup.

With cake instead of pizza.

BoreOfWhabylon · 17/11/2021 22:49

Sorry, sorry - Prince Andrew!

PigeonLittle · 17/11/2021 22:52

@2Rebecca

The most unpleasant TRAs I know aren't trans. They are usually male gay or sometimes straight or bi "allies" who see trans rights as a religion they can be martyrs for and portray themselves as virtuous saints against the evil heretics. Harrop fits this profile as does Owen Jones, Kirsty Blackman and people I know without such a high public profile. Few trans people do the self glorification witch hunting thing to the same extent. Why are these people so invested in this?
Oh I know why
BeReet · 17/11/2021 23:00

This is absolutely fascinating reading, I cannot quite believe the VICE article tbh, sheer stupidity. On top of pre- existing appalling behaviour!

Terfasaurus · 17/11/2021 23:06

The lady at the tribunal today is doing a brilliant job & public service typing up the proceedings from her notes late at night.

twitter.com/selfcommit2othe/status/1461104605698400265?s=21

I wanted to I could have selected a person & sent it them. My conversation with c was not my intention to disclose.
GMC - do you accept when referencing golf..
Chair - stopped meeting & put into private session.

It’s a travesty. We all know what is being referred to and yet it’s going private to spare an abusive person’s blushes.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 17/11/2021 23:10

We are about to run out of space on the thread. @ItsAllGoingToBeFine - do you want to start a thread 2?

Cos, I think we're gonna need a bigger boat.

BreadInCaptivity · 17/11/2021 23:16

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

(Don't forget the two written warnings which seem to have been largely ignored.) I would not want someone like that back without reassurance and without confidence that they intended to change their behaviour. The article suggest that a slap on the wrist might simply give confidence that earlier behaviours were acceptable.

This is his advice to a fellow colleague after one or both of those warnings.

I've zero idea how reliable the source is, but a regular GC poster on Twitter has stated they know the GMC are aware of that tweet.

Motorina · 17/11/2021 23:19

Agreed - it's really hard to take thorough notes when cross examination is moving at a pace, and she's doing superbly well.

BreadInCaptivity · 17/11/2021 23:21

@Motorina

Agreed - it's really hard to take thorough notes when cross examination is moving at a pace, and she's doing superbly well.
Indeed much 👏👏👏👏👏
Rainbowshit · 17/11/2021 23:41

Imagine spending all that time and money to become a doctor and just torpedoing it like this. What is he thinking?

2Rebecca · 18/11/2021 00:12

I don't understand someone entering medicine and deciding this is the most important health problem in the UK and what they want to dedicate themselves to.

BreadInCaptivity · 18/11/2021 00:37

@2Rebecca

I don't understand someone entering medicine and deciding this is the most important health problem in the UK and what they want to dedicate themselves to.

It's cult like behaviour. Aldous Huxley:

“There will be, in the next generation or so, a pharmacological method of making people love their servitude, and producing dictatorship without tears, so to speak, producing a kind of painless concentration camp for entire societies, so that people will in fact have their liberties taken away from them, but will rather enjoy it, because they will be distracted from any desire to rebel by propaganda or brainwashing, or brainwashing enhanced by pharmacological methods. And this seems to be the final revolution.”

BoreOfWhabylon · 18/11/2021 00:53

@2Rebecca

I don't understand someone entering medicine and deciding this is the most important health problem in the UK and what they want to dedicate themselves to.
It's not that, I don't think. He was desperate to have a high media profile. He tried to be spokesperson for a couple of things before he hit on transactivism.

It all played out on Twitter. Adrian wants to be important.

BreadInCaptivity · 18/11/2021 01:23

It's not that, I don't think. He was desperate to have a high media profile. He tried to be spokesperson for a couple of things before he hit on transactivism.

I agree.

The first time I came across Harrop was in the local TV news (see below) where I lived at that time.

I'm remember a lot of people being very upset by this interview.

I'm going to be careful what I write so bear with me.

Allegedly, at the time of this interview he was a junior doctor and a locum who had only recently in post.

I think the former can be proven but I have no evidence for the latter.

The interview was allegedly conducted without managerial consent.

There were apparently/allegedly a number of HCP's at the hospital who were upset/incensed by this interview because whilst it did highlight budgetary issues re: winter provision of patient care and stress on the NHS (remember this is pre- covid) it suggested (depending on your interpretation of the interview) that healthcare at Scarborough Hospital was sub-standard and that might mean people who were ill might not seek the help they needed and had also overstated the level of "crisis".

BreadInCaptivity · 18/11/2021 01:29

Apologies for they typos..,

FindTheTruth · 18/11/2021 02:03

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FindTheTruth · 18/11/2021 02:09

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