World menopause day for 50% of people

[OhDear2200]

This has pissed me right off

www.acas.org.uk/menopause-at-work

Interestingly under the law bit gender reassignment is before sex.

I don't see how the menopause could ever be the basis for a discrimination claim on the basis of gender reassignment.

It's not impossible to imagine some scenario in which transmen undergoing the menopause were discriminated against relative to women.

Menopause is the cessation of periods, so the trans people it affects must be transmen.

Trans women are specifically referenced on the website under “Talking to staff about the menopause: Supporting trans, intersex and non-binary employees”

@ErrolTheDragon

I don't see how the menopause could ever be the basis for a discrimination claim on the basis of gender reassignment.

It's not impossible to imagine some scenario in which transmen undergoing the menopause were discriminated against relative to women.

Yes, I agree with this - it could happen.

But it would be a very tricky claim.

Say, for example, an employer allowed extra sickness absence to a woman who needed to be off due to meno symptoms. Say then they did not allow the same to a transman, who they may not even know is trans (after all, we're not allowed to talk about it, not allowed to misgender, not allowed to deadname and have to all pretend they are the sex they say they are).

What claim is the transman going to bring?

They didn't treat me the same as other women? No, they treated you like a man, which is what you say you are. So, no discrimination on grounds of gender reassignment.

So, if they did offer the extended sickness then they would be outing the transman as a woman. And then no sex discrimination.

It's a bit of a minefield and I'm not sure what the claim would be. But I have literally zero doubt that there will be one!

Another wrinkle is that, I believe, some cases have established that the comparator to use in the EA for gender reassignment discrimination was someone of the same legal sex.

In which case a transman without a GRC could claim gender reassignment discrimination by comparing with women. That seems fine, as direct discrimination.

But a the transman with a GRC would have to claim gender reassignment discrimination compared to a man. I guess that still works, but it would be indirect discrimination. A "man" with gender reassignment is indirectly discriminated against if men get no menopause leave, as the "men" with gender reassignment need it, and the men without don't.

(As much as the whole mess created by the GRA is fucking stupid and unnecessary, some of the puzzles it presents are quite fun. Feels kind of like that sliding-block "rush hour" game where you have to get the car out...)

Yes I take your point. It would be if a transman going through menopause was treated differently from a woman going through menopause.

But would the discrimination actually be based on gender reassignment? Because, to all intents and purposes, the trans man believes he is a man, presents as a man and says he is a man. So the employer would be treating him like a man rather than a woman. So is that discrimination on the basis of sex or gender reassignment?

Does it make a difference if the employer doesn't know the transman is biologically female? You can't be directly discriminated against on a ground that the employer isn't aware of. So if the employer thinks the transman is a biological man and refuses him sick leave on the basis that he is a man, how can it be discrimination?

Also, Acas incorrectly say that transwoman can experience menopausal symptoms which is medically incorrect. They cannot menstruate or stop menstruating. They might have side effects from taking/reducing/stopping sex hormones but that is not the same as the menopause.

You can't be directly discriminated against on a ground that the employer isn't aware of.

I think there is case law on disability discrimination where an employer wasn't aware but was still held liable. I'll try to find it.

Not saying it's comparable, and will have been based on some specific facts, but I think it did happen.

I received an email from ACAS about this today including my italics, not in the linked garbage. I’m
The menopause is a natural stage of life. It usually happens between 45 and 55 years of age but it can also happen earlier or later in someone's life. Women going through the menopause are now the fastest growing demographic in the workplace. It’s more important than ever for employers to have a good understanding of the menopause and how they can support colleagues”

Good.... I wonder what the wording would have been if they'd sent it yesterday!

Not if they don't know, but if they could reasonably have been expected to know:

www.dacbeachcroft.com/en/gb/articles/2019/august/disability-discrimination-employers-knowledge-of-disability/

Not sure if that translates to trans people. In theory it absolutely should not, because that translation itself could be discrimination.

That's very interesting as it says employers have a proactive duty to do what they can to consider whether someone has a disability. As you say, I'm not sure how that could apply to gender reassignment!

It could get very interesting if it comes down to arguments in court about whether the employer should have known that a person presenting as a man is actually a woman. Could get extremely personal!!

@Piapiano

That's very interesting as it says employers have a proactive duty to do what they can to consider whether someone has a disability. As you say, I'm not sure how that could apply to gender reassignment!

It could get very interesting if it comes down to arguments in court about whether the employer should have known that a person presenting as a man is actually a woman. Could get extremely personal!!

And would doubtless be triggering and then there would be a case brought against the tribunal itself!

Am I reading correctly...

That ACAS have including people on artificial hormones. When varying dosage etc. Are going through menopause and so any difficult side effects should be seen in that category?

Surely that should be covered under other types of medical treatments that has difficult side effects?

What is wrong with saying anyone female? FFS?

Why does the hormone treatment only apply to trans women?

The pill is artificial hormones.
DH is on hormone therapy from the doc.
I saw a prog about how men are increasingly getting private hormone therapy from private docs to counteract the natural reduction due to ageing. The men on the TV said it was male menopause.

They are REALLY muddying the waters here. And all to ensure that not only are the words woman, girl, female used. Not only that, there avoid as far as I can see. Referring to female biology at all?

The definition of menopause is and has always been- this taken from the NHS link they provide which is perfectly clear-

'The menopause is when a woman stops having periods and is no longer able to get pregnant naturally.'

They have REDEFINED the meaning of menopause. Severed the fundamental point that it's about female biology. Decided that male people can go through menopause.

All to be inclusive...

BIOLOGY IS NOT INCLUSIVE!

and menopause has been not something talked about generally much at all.
Many/ most women are not aware of the full range of possible symptoms.
And while I get to the not liking it always presented as awful. The fact is for plenty of women it is, it results in loads of women losing/ quitting/ changing their jobs. With all the loss of earnings pension etc that means.
And up until 5 mins ago we were supposed to try and get on with life/ deal with it quietly no matter how bad things were.

It's still a big issue for women, and is divisive.

And acad merrily discard the whole lot including it being a female thing FFS.

I mean it's a total dick move.

AND in real life. What the menopause is, in basic terms. Is very well known I'd think.

And it can come due to surgery of various types. It can happen unusually young. Or unusually old. What... 30-60 or something? Dunno but a very very big age range.

So while it's good for line managers to know it can be difficult for some etc.

They shouldn't be guessing FFS!

With men, they have been saying oh she's on her period, pregnancy hormones, menopausal for yonks! Generally to explain why we're not behaving in the smiley diplomatic way we're generally supposed to.

So why the list of who it can affect, which redefines the whole thing?

No one should be guessing. Employee comes along and says hello wanted to let you know peri / pretty sure peri and xyz is bad and affecting whatever. Manager says right ok thanks for telling me. And then whatever.

Do intersex people, or trans people who are on hormones. Go around announcing it? Not generally I'd think.

That whole bit is a distraction that has been put in for the sake of... I suppose anything about women has to have things like that Or Else...

Ridiculous.

On the back of this can anyone recommend a trainer or other resource? I received the email from ACAS with the appropriate references to women and can arrange training/ awareness for my female colleagues. Or maybe it should be for all staff?!

I've heard of Peppy being a good resource. I would want to check if they use the word women though.

@NiceGerbil yes I think they want to redefine menopause to be inclusive so that men can say they experience it too. And decouple it from female biology. Absolutely bonkers.

By the way, I'm still continuing to complain about them saying that men (transwomen) can experience menopause when what they are talking about is side effects from sex hormone medication.

In all this madness I just wanted to post about my excellent employer who launched their Menopause Policy this week - I opened it with some trepidation after reading this thread but I'm delighted to say that it is 100% sensible. The word woman is used liberally throughout, and they definitely mean adult human females! It has great paragraphs in it like the following

"Employers could risk facing claims for sexual discrimination under the Equality Act 2010 if they fail to properly support their female employees. The Health and Safety at Work Act also requires
ensuring the health, safety, and wellbeing of employees. This aside, the purpose of considering reasonable adjustments is to enable a woman experiencing menopause symptoms to continue undertaking her job as comfortably as possible. Any adjustments should be discussed and consider both the woman’s needs and the service requirements."

and clear factual information like this:
"What is the Menopause?
The menopause is a natural stage in a woman’s life, usually occurring between the ages of 45 and 55, but this can vary widely. The medical definition is when a woman has her last period.
Menopause can generally last from between 4 to 8 years and can also be marked by changes in a woman’s hormones, specifically a decrease in the production of the hormone oestrogen.
The years during which oestrogen levels decline before a woman has her last period is called the perimenopause."

Needless to say, my employer is not signed up to Stonewall.

Wow. It really is a ‘sign of the times’ when we are thankful for small mercies!

My employer has also published an article for Menopause Day this week and it uses the words "woman" and "women" throughout. Ridiculous that I was surprised about it when I read it! I work in a very male-dominated sector and we have enough problems attracting and keeping female members of staff without going full woke - they seem to be getting it!

I suspect anyone in their right mind knows not to mess with menopausal woman. The ‘bright young things’ won’t want to think of such ‘ikky’ things anyway.

Ahhh the benefits of aging...

Unfortunately my employer is fully signed up to the gender cult so have changed women to people, even when it makes no sense e.g. they say "menopause is when a person doesn't have periods for 12 months". So that includes all men then?!

My job isn't safe enough that I feel able to challenge this as most of the managers seem to be fully woke. Partly why it has been so cathartic to be able to challenge Acas anonymously.

Just bumping this to say that I still think it's worth continuing to complain that Acas is saying that biological males can experience the menopause or menopausal symptoms. They cannot. Menopause means not having a period for 12 months. Men cannot have periods and therefore cannot experience menopause. Transwpmen may experience side effects from sex hormones but this is not the menopause. Acas has a duty not to give employers misleading and inaccurate information as many employers will simply copy this information in their own policies.

They are trying to decouple menopause from biology, we can't let them do it.

While we're on the subject, it also infuriates me how TWs talk about receiving 'HRT'.
It's NOT HRT!
It's synthetic cross sex hormones. Hormone REPLACEMENT therapy for women is replacing something naturally found in the female body.
Because biological males do not have these hormones (in the same amounts), then they are not 'replacing' anything!
They are taking cross sex hormones.

MEN cannot experience menopause, and anything a biological male goes through when ceasing cross sex hormones is not the fucking menopause.