Question Time right now!

[Seeingadistance]

Prof Robert Winston has just stated very clearly that it is not possible to change sex.

In relation to freedom of speech and Kathleen Stock.

@EsmaCannonball

I remember listening to a news report on the high suicide rate among farmers with a doctor who got really annoyed at the conclusions drawn and who thought them irresponsible. She said that, like doctors and pharmacists, farmers had access to the means for effective suicide (guns, chemicals, strong animal medications), they lived in places with outbuildings and spaces where they were unlikely to be interrupted or rescued, and the location of farms meant that medical help would be a long time coming. It wasn't necessarily the case that farmers were more despairing than anybody else. So many different factors come into play with suicide statistics, even when those statistics are reliable, that they are not necessarily a meaningful way of assessing who is more depressed and who is more vulnerable.

I had never thought about farmer suicides in that way.

Sorry; still thinking about QT, although things seem to be moving on…

I also agree with everyone here praising Anne McElvoy; I very much enjoyed her style of intelligence on QT. It was like a light went on when she spoke and we need much more of that.

I seem to recall the Drama Student nodding along with Anne as she cleverly formed an alliance at the beginning of her response to her. Then Anne deftly changing course and saying the student needed to welcome having her views challenged in university. IIRC the Drama Student was still nodding enthusiastically (with what I fancied was a hint of a giggle) in the way that I think students trying their best to be “good girls” often do.

When there are no women around in the style of Anne, those trying to be “good girls” have to enact this willingness in relation to whats available; sloppy thinking; older women awkwardly hedging around endlessly, saying nothing of any note at all, or trying to say what’s pleasing to others.

^
Like that waffle woman

Prof Robert Winston has just stated very clearly that it is not possible to change sex.

@Georgist: as trans people believe they are already the sex they claim to be, they are not changing anything.

@Ereshkigalangcleg: They can believe what they like, Prof Wilson was quite clear what sex means.

He was quite clear that people cannot change their sex, but I don’t think he said anything about what sex means.
I wonder how his thinking has developed since the 2004 debate in which he cited research suggesting that ‘some people who become transsexuals later in life have been exposed to an abnormal surge of either male or female hormones during pregnancy. That has caused them to have a different psychological sex from their genital sex. Psychological sex of course depends on brain function. That also varies greatly and is probably genetically determined, but so much exploration of that subject is being conducted that it is not fully understood.
Genetics is rapidly changing our understanding of where sex is determined. But to define it simply as genital, hormonal or … gonadal, is a travesty of what really happens.’

api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/2004/feb/03/gender-recognition-bill-hl

Perhaps there is a tiny number of cases in which Georgist might be right?

I wonder how his thinking has developed since the 2004 debate in which he cited research suggesting that ‘some people who become transsexuals later in life have been exposed to an abnormal surge of either male or female hormones during pregnancy.

It was a theory but I don't think much has emerged to give it a solid grounding, and this was nearly two decades ago, and about a different group of people. I expect he's a bit embarrassed.

@VitalsStable
"I don't really understand the concept of being born in the wrong body"

@SchadenfreudePersonified
"I appreciate that there are people who, for whatever reason, are genuinely uncomfortable with their bodily sex. I feel for them, but most claiming to "feel" like members of the opposite sex have no idea what they are talking about."

I think this may be a paradox. Someone says they feel like something. You tell them they don't. You have a better idea of what they feel like!

I think having "no idea what they are talking about" implies a very limited understanding of others, which seems to be an exaggeration.

think this may be a paradox. Someone says they feel like something. You tell them they don't.

No one is telling them that they don't feel a thing, we're questioning their interpretation as people do all the time. Or do you believe everything anyone else says?

Sex is dependent not on hormones or psychology but on gametes, and humans only ever produce one type: large immobile gametes if they are female; small mobile gametes if they are male. Humans cannot change from producing one type of gamete to producing the other type and no human has ever produced both. There is no spectrum of gametes.

Whilst we might like to think of ourselves as somehow apart from other organism definition of sex applies across the board: mammels, fish, birds, plants:
female=large immobile gamete
male=small mobile gamete
Everything else is just the mechanism by which these are brought together and supporting development of young.

I think this may be a paradox. Someone says they feel like something. You tell them they don't. You have a better idea of what they feel like!

But when a man says they feel like a woman it's more, 'I feel like you do.' And I am quite right to state that it is absolutely impossible for someone to claim that as they have no idea what my internal experience is. So it's actually the opposite of what you are saying. I am not denying their internal experience, they are appropriating mine!

I am a woman, I have no idea what it feels like to be woman. I have no idea what it feels like to be anything other than me. I don't understand how anyone thinks they can feel like a member of the opposite sex - because I don't think there is a single homogeneous feeling found in all women. As no-one has ever been able to give me an explanation of what feeling like a woman means and until they do I'm not buy it. So if you think you can feel like a woman please tell me what this means.

I’ve got a period from hell at the moment (imagine your worst and times it by a million). I’m having a fair idea of ‘womaning’ at the moment. My males don’t but they understand it’s best to keep feeding me tea and cake, and not piss me off (or stay too lolling in the bathroom).

@howard97A
"as trans people believe they are already the sex they claim to be, they are not changing anything."

A significant proportion of trans people have some sort of medical intervention or at least request it (puberty blockers, gender reassignment). Doesn't that demonstrate they are not the sex they want to be? Maybe they are often guilty of doublethink: "I took some steps to become a woman and I was always a woman. I didn't have to do anything to become a woman, but if you denied me gender reassignment, that would make you transphobic."
I got the impression that these people would be a very small minority.

I do recall someone (maybe Douglas Murray) observing that young children playing with toys intended for the other gender might be a sign that they were trans, but also that gender was a construct (so which toys were masculine and which were feminine was socially constructed). But is that only a contradiction if everything is 100% socially constructed?

"Perhaps there is a tiny number of cases in which Georgist might be right?"

It's not clear to me what this is in response to! Please could you clarify?

[quote Georgist]@VitalsStable
"I don't really understand the concept of being born in the wrong body"

@SchadenfreudePersonified
"I appreciate that there are people who, for whatever reason, are genuinely uncomfortable with their bodily sex. I feel for them, but most claiming to "feel" like members of the opposite sex have no idea what they are talking about."

I think this may be a paradox. Someone says they feel like something. You tell them they don't. You have a better idea of what they feel like!

I think having "no idea what they are talking about" implies a very limited understanding of others, which seems to be an exaggeration.[/quote]
I'm not saying they don't know what it feels like to be a different sex, (although I don't understand how a man says he feels like a woman when he has no idea of what being a woman feels like) I'm saying I don't understand how you can say your body is the wrong body when your body is essentially such a huge part of what you are.

Are they saying their body is not what they are, that they are just a soul who has been born in the wrong vessel?

My body is me, if you took away my body I'd no longer be me.

@Runningupthecurtains

I am a woman, I have no idea what it feels like to be woman. I have no idea what it feels like to be anything other than me. I don't understand how anyone thinks they can feel like a member of the opposite sex - because I don't think there is a single homogeneous feeling found in all women. As no-one has ever been able to give me an explanation of what feeling like a woman means and until they do I'm not buy it. So if you think you can feel like a woman please tell me what this means.

THIS ^

@Runningupthecurtains

I am a woman, I have no idea what it feels like to be woman. I have no idea what it feels like to be anything other than me. I don't understand how anyone thinks they can feel like a member of the opposite sex - because I don't think there is a single homogeneous feeling found in all women. As no-one has ever been able to give me an explanation of what feeling like a woman means and until they do I'm not buy it. So if you think you can feel like a woman please tell me what this means.

There isn't a single homogeneous feeling, but you probably have an insight into what others are feeling. For example, the poster below wrote: "I’ve got a period from hell at the moment (imagine your worst and times it by a million)." Is your response "I know what my period feels like, so I have a some idea what that feels like for you?" Or "I have literally know idea. There could be billions of women with periods which feel nothing like anything I have experienced. I have no basis on which to assume anything."

Bearing in mind that there are apparently (literally ) "hundreds of genders", it really would be much safer and simpler to stick to sex as a differential.

I know what having a period feels like - but that isn't being a woman (and even if it was how could a man know what it's like? I hope I have another 30+ years ahead of me I probably won't have another period in those years so am I no longer a woman? I know that getting hit in testicles hurts because I've seen the look of pain in men's faces when I happens to them but I have no idea what it feels like. But even if I did get DH to explain that it's like stub toe but more rather than like a toothache that doesn't mean I would know what it felt like to be a man. A pregnant 19 year old European woman in 1571 and a 93 year old Mexican women in 2020 will have some commonality of experience but arguably have more in common with a similar age contemporary of the opposite gender than each other. So apart from biology what makes them women? What essence is there and how could a man feel it?

@VitalsStable
"I'm not saying they don't know what it feels like to be a different sex, (although I don't understand how a man says he feels like a woman when he has no idea of what being a woman feels like)"

I'm just not sure that we can know that they don't know. One extreme possibility is that experience varies so much that a woman doesn't know what other women feel. The other extreme is that experience is similar enough that most know what it feels like. If the latter, then isn't it possible that a man could feel like woman?
I don't think there is any way of knowing.
Maybe some articulate person who has experienced this has tried to explain (I did some quick searching on this, but only found general guides on these issues).

"I'm saying I don't understand how you can say your body is the wrong body when your body is essentially such a huge part of what you are.
"Are they saying their body is not what they are, that they are just a soul who has been born in the wrong vessel?

My body is me, if you took away my body I'd no longer be me."

If you didn't like who you are, what would you want to? I think there are two options: change who you are or end your life.
I think they tend to opt for the former, and then sometimes the latter if they were denied the former or they found out it didn't solve their problems.

Why would you say that the only options are to change yourself or kill yourself if you don't like who you are? Would you say that to a disabled person who can't change who they are?

How about coming to terms with things that you can't change, through therapy or otherwise?

Who cares if they know?
People can't change sex, or be in the wrong sex body.
If you are female/male then whatever you experience is a female/male experience.

@Nondescriptname

Who cares if they know? People can't change sex, or be in the wrong sex body. If you are female/male then whatever you experience is a female/male experience.

I just think it's fucking rude frankly. So I am arguing because it pisses me off rather than because I think losing the argument cedes something to Gender ideology.

In actuality my argument really runs - 'I feel like a woman'. 'No you don't you condescending twat.'

The other extreme is that experience is similar enough that most know what it feels like. If the latter, then isn't it possible that a man could feel like woman?

No. Because if all women feel the same (they don't) and the way they feel is distinct from how men feel (it isn't) then by definition a man can't feel like that. OBVIOUSLY!

Just watched it. Very interesting what the ex? government advisor said as well. Freedom of speech will make you feel uncomfortable .

Also everyone defending the fact that students should feel safe , but what about professors having the same right.

The Labour woman was terrible .

Stating as a fact that trans women are women and trans men are men .

So I’m going to self ID as tall tomorrow , because that’s how I feel . Guess what I will still need steps to reach my kitchen cupboards.

That last student (was he a student?) fundamentally didn't understand the point of universities. He was basically saying the job of academics is pastoral care of students and then they do a bit of this research stuff on the side. No, what you're describing there is boarding school! If you don't know what a university actually is or why they exist, why should we listen to you?

borntobewild
I have always had a bit of a Robert Winston thing, your brother sounds lovely

I understand that RW did have a hand in the GRA in 2004, wonder how he feels about that.

I find younger people fascinating with the need to feel 'safe'. This translates as need to not be challenged, however more than that, need to dominate those around.

Actually a very damaging attitude for everyone, also hypocritical. Surely, the other person should feel safe from their views too?
How are the woke young so lacking in empathy and understanding that other people are people too??