Question Time right now!

[Seeingadistance]

Prof Robert Winston has just stated very clearly that it is not possible to change sex.

In relation to freedom of speech and Kathleen Stock.

@justbackfrombangkok

A suicide is always a coroner's case. Therefore we do have accurate suicide statistics. The accurate statistics completely debunk the supposedly high suicide rate/risk in trans people.

Everything I've seen says its high. What is disputed is whether this implies anything about discrimination or abuse.

There's a higher than average suicide rate amongst doctors.

This could be down to the stress of the job, ready access to the means and the knowledge to carry out sucessfuly, or maybe something in the personality type of people that go into medicine.

Or any permuation or combination of the above and other factors.

@cuk00soup "And the young will grow up. At least I hope so. "

Ref Bob Dylan - I was so much older then , I'm younger than that now

Ds & his friend love that song and talk about when they were absolutely sure about stuff when they were students and they are not so much as they get older. Fingers crossed.

Or how about the Divine Stevie Nicks?

I first heard Landslide when I was twenty and it cut me to the core:

But time makes you bolder, even children get older, and I'm getting older too.

(And she's addressing it to the git with the guitar.)

@mountbattenbergcake
"What associated speech? What word gets people assaulted?"

No word gets people assaulted. But people claim culture has an impact. For example, if racist language is widely used, racism is seen as more accepted and so there are more racist crimes. Apparently there were a lot more racist attacks after the EU referendum. It wasn't explicitly racist, but it was seen to embolden racists (as some people said, "not every leaver is a racist, but every racist is a leaver"). There were similar trends with Trump's election. Not just "Mexicans are rapists" but also "grab em by the p" and normalising the backlash against woman who say they were raped - he claimed they were all liars just trying to smear Republicans.

Do you think this is completely wrong? Do you think all attacks are done completely independently of cultural influences?

I have a close friend who was adopted. She, very rightly, considers the people who raised her to be her mum and dad. However when she goes to the doctor and they ask about her family history, she doesn't talk about the genetic illnesses her mum and dad have. She tells them about the history of her biological mother's family and the little she knows about the man who she shares DNA with. She doesn't deny biology because that would be fucking stupid.

And it could be very dangerous too.

@Runningupthecurtains

But I don't see why they can't be called what they If want they want is Lucy or Helen or Fifi fine. But when men want to be called women there is an impact on women. We become "cervix havers". We have wooly definitions of woman that exclude actual women in order to make way for men. We have loop holes that let rapists identify as women to access women's spaces.

I'm inclined to agree and with @Pinkfairylights:

"I don't want men - however they identify - in women's single sex spaces. As you point out we can't tell the difference between the good ones and predators. Not to mention that women shouldn't be made to share, not just because of potential violence but for reasons of privacy and dignity."

But I wonder if it would be possible to say they are women, but not allowed in woman only spaces or to compete with women in sports, for safety reasons.

Are some women banned from women only spaces? (e.g. women convicted of sexual assault against other women?) If yes, then this would set a precedent that discrimination is reasonable on safety grounds. If not, then this seems similarly pressing.

@trancepants

I have a close friend who was adopted. She, very rightly, considers the people who raised her to be her mum and dad. However when she goes to the doctor and they ask about her family history, she doesn't talk about the genetic illnesses her mum and dad have. She tells them about the history of her biological mother's family and the little she knows about the man who she shares DNA with. She doesn't deny biology because that would be fucking stupid.

Do you know if any trans people deny biology when seeking medical treatment? I doubt there are any trans woman who are trying to get pregnant, for example.

Do you know if any trans people deny biology when seeking medical treatment?

I believe that there have been cases of transwomen asking for cervical smear tests.

I remember listening to a news report on the high suicide rate among farmers with a doctor who got really annoyed at the conclusions drawn and who thought them irresponsible. She said that, like doctors and pharmacists, farmers had access to the means for effective suicide (guns, chemicals, strong animal medications), they lived in places with outbuildings and spaces where they were unlikely to be interrupted or rescued, and the location of farms meant that medical help would be a long time coming. It wasn't necessarily the case that farmers were more despairing than anybody else. So many different factors come into play with suicide statistics, even when those statistics are reliable, that they are not necessarily a meaningful way of assessing who is more depressed and who is more vulnerable.

Do you know if any trans people deny biology when seeking medical treatment?
There are trans men that have given birth a claim to have been a pregnant man.
There are trans people that insist that the sex marker on their medical records is changed from the biological one.
There were male born people claiming to have a cervix just last week.

So yes I do think some trans people deny biology when seeking medical treatment.

@Jaysmith71 that is just lovely - thank you

Further to my post this has oft been attributed to Mark Twain - how one gets wiser " When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much he had learned in seven years. " - I think some students do get wiser as they get older. Or perhaps I mean a little more maturity - which is not to say all students can't have their views etc & many will be mature - just - flying in the face of facts isn't really great IMHO.

There was a pregnant transman in the USA whose baby died because the nurse wasn't aware that the patient was a bioiogical female, so didn't test/check for pregnancy/labour as a possible cause of abdo pain that the patient presented with. Patient never offered up the needed info - baby died. Bloody tragedy.

I doubt there are any trans woman who are trying to get pregnant, for example.

There was one charming individual in the US that used a prosthetic belly and planned to fake labour and have a "still birth". He bitched that while uterus transplants were being trialled that he wouldn't be considered for one as "we are always last to get the nice stuff".
I actually had to stop reading the thread about him as it was so disturbing.

Do you know if any trans people deny biology when seeking medical treatment?

Didn’t a trans man nearly die because they told A&E they were male? I can’t remember the details.

@WinterTrees

Yes, I’m going back to it again now in my mind. Whatever FB’s motivation was, I’d say it was the same one that was behind her saying to Robert “AND there are plenty of people who disagree with you!” She found the energy to say THAT rather forcefully (unlike the KS quote). And it didn’t need saying at all because that’s what QT actually is; a forum in which people share their different perspectives and disagreements. It would be strange, wouldn’t it, if Fiona said “And there’s plenty of people who disagree with you” after every single sentence everybody said on the programme… But she said it after this one. No others. She steered the audience; just as you say happened in WH.

I understand she might be frightened but she went too far. All she had to do was remain neutral and facilitate; can’t see there being a personal backlash if she simply did that.

@Runningupthecurtains

I doubt there are any trans woman who are trying to get pregnant, for example.

There was one charming individual in the US that used a prosthetic belly and planned to fake labour and have a "still birth". He bitched that while uterus transplants were being trialled that he wouldn't be considered for one as "we are always last to get the nice stuff".
I actually had to stop reading the thread about him as it was so disturbing.

Trying to fake labour indicates he wasn't trying to get pregnant.

@Runningupthecurtains

I doubt there are any trans woman who are trying to get pregnant, for example.

There was one charming individual in the US that used a prosthetic belly and planned to fake labour and have a "still birth". He bitched that while uterus transplants were being trialled that he wouldn't be considered for one as "we are always last to get the nice stuff".
I actually had to stop reading the thread about him as it was so disturbing.

I did see a quote sad series of posts on Facebook where a ‘celebrity’ trans woman had photos of a pregnancy test ‘fingers crossed!!!’ and people actually encouraging them, and wishing them a ‘successful’ test.

This person has been ‘famous’ since they were a child, so they couldn’t have mistaken them for a ‘birthing person’. It thought it was quite cruel.

@VitalsStable

I don't really understand the concept of being born in the wrong body either?

As a person you're both mind and body, your body is yours, it's not wrong, you may not feel like it's yours but it, along with your mind make up you as a human. How can it be the wrong body??

Absolutely!

You have a body.

It is yours.

Love it if you can, but if you can't, it is thinly one you will ever get, so look after it s best you can and accept it with all its imperfections.

This "born in the wrong body" sh*te really narks me. There' are many people whose bodies are damaged, sick, painful and constricting to live in. Very few of them complain about having the "wrong body".

I don't doubt they would love to have healthy, fully functional bodies, but they don't and just get on with their lives, often achieving amazing things.

I appreciate that there are people who, for whatever reason, are genuinely uncomfortable with their bodily sex. I feel for them, but most claiming to "feel" like members of the opposite sex have no idea what they are what they are talking about.

*the only, not thinly

@Runningupthecurtains

Do you know if any trans people deny biology when seeking medical treatment? There are trans men that have given birth a claim to have been a pregnant man. There are trans people that insist that the sex marker on their medical records is changed from the biological one. There were male born people claiming to have a cervix just last week.

So yes I do think some trans people deny biology when seeking medical treatment.

How widespread do you think this is?

Do you know if any trans people deny biology when seeking medical treatment?

There was a (local) newspaper article recently about a trans-identified woman who had insisted that her medical records were changed to record her sex as male. Se a result she wasn't called for smear tests. As a result of that when she developed cervical /uterine cancer it wasn't diagnosed until it was fairly well progressed.

S/he blamed the doctor's practice. Apparently they should be aware that there are many transgender people and send out smear test appointments to just about everybody, male and female . . .

As an adopter can I just say how much I hate being used as a 'gotcha' in this argument? As though my being my children's 'mother' has any equivalence to a man being called a woman?

Actually my experience is quite the opposite - as a pp pointed out. Do I find it distressing to be reminded of my children's shitty start in life and their having to be taken into care? Yes. Could those reminders be described as 'triggering'? Yes possibly. (I had a go at someone on a thread here earlier this week because it touched a raw nerve.) When I am required to 'out' us as not being related - for example to medical professionals- is that difficult? Yes it really is. It's horrible. They always look faintly embarrassed or, worse, they occasionally misunderstand a bit and think my children are care experienced because of something I have done to them.

Because of all this distress and difficulty do I require therefore that the world collude with me in a lie? No, because that would be insane.

How widespread do you think this is?

I'm not sure it matters. Women's rights are being eroded, female prisoners are being thrown under a bus, women's sport is becoming a travesty, female followers of several religions are being pushed further to the margins of society I can't quite work out this is more or less awful if this is because of a tiny number of people or merely a pretty small number of people. I find it unacceptable that 51% of the population is being asked to give way to a small number of men. I don't really give a shit how small a number it is because somehow they have managed to end up in a position that makes it scandalous for an eminent professor for biology to state that humans can't change sex. I might consider and them worthy of my concern if they weren't massively overrepresented, hugely powerful and totally untouchable.