Why single sex spaces

[DorsVenabili]

the debate about single sex space re trans rights has made me question the basis for single sex spaces in general (and not just in this context) - more philosophically. There doesn't seem much discussion in the various acts as to why they are needed.
I think my question is what do we feel more comfortable being naked in front of people of the same sex- is this nature or nurture/society. I don't think its to do with sexuality as a woman ( and as a girl)- i don't feel more comfortable with homosexual men than I would with lesbians

@DorsVenabili

So I have a trans friend. She is fully post operative. Been living after transition for about 20 years.

You really think she should use the male toilets?

I don’t.

You aren’t talking about trans people. You are talking about perverts and sex offenders.

Don’t you think you need to make that distinction?

[quote Cascascascas]@DorsVenabili

So I have a trans friend. She is fully post operative. Been living after transition for about 20 years.

You really think she should use the male toilets?

I don’t.

You aren’t talking about trans people. You are talking about perverts and sex offenders.

Don’t you think you need to make that distinction?[/quote]
I think you need to discuss this with Stonewall UK, the modern flavour of trans rights activist and all the twitterati.

Between them have gone to great efforts to include, quoting you, "perverts and sex offenders" under the transgender umbrella. A number of people are on record saying that people who committed horrific crimes of sexual violence are entitled to the same manner of treatment as your friend. Here is a Lib-Dem personage arguing for that we shouldn't misgender Ian Huntley, the man who murdered two ten year olds, if he was transitioning. order-order.com/2018/06/11/libdem-policy-transphobic-call-ian-huntley-ian-huntley/

What have you done to reject these people?

No-one ever consulted women on any kind of scale in 2004 or prior to that. There was no referendum performed. Transwomen were told they could use women's spaces. To be fair, if I had been asked in 2004, I would have said that I was fine with it. I was in fact in favour of the GRA 2004. I was also young, and not that well informed about how it could impinge on the rights and freedoms of others. Most importantly, I was expecting the toilet issue to stop there, and that transwomen and transmen would be put in siderooms as a matter of course in hospitals, and that no one with a penis, who had been convicted on an incredibly violent rape, would ever be placed in a women's prison.

Now I find that the inch, which was extended to transwomen, is being used to allow "perverts and sex offenders" [your wording] to take a mile. It's like inviting two nice friends to stay over for a quiet weekend, and discovering they've told the whole town it's an open house party. And watching in horror as violent thugs urinate on the carpet.

So either the trans rights activists need to reject these people entirely, or we'll be having that inch of compromise back. This behaviour is why you can't have nice things. Get rid of them.

#NoThankYou

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

I agree with better diagnosis but I don’t agree that these odd cases make good law.

My friend is a woman. She always felt like that and had the guts to be her.

Why should bad people penalise her?

If the law permits "odd cases" (an unusual euphemism for a violent rapist being given access to a building of trapped women who cannot leave), then it is bad law.

Properly drafted legislation does not have loopholes that mean male rapists can be rewarded for their crime with a female cellmate.

Think I'm exaggerating?

extract

The concern among staff and inmates is a risk of sexual assault. ^The employee cites a recent incident in which an inmate from a male facility raped a female in the women’s prison upon arrival.& The transferred inmate, according to the employee, is incarcerated for a sex offense and has “fully functional male genitalia, a history of violence and sexual depravity in the community, and has been found guilty of sexual assault against other inmates while housed in the men’s facilities.”

“He is a proven sexual predator, having committed multiple crimes against women, yet the State of Washington had no problem moving him into a women’s facility and housing him with the most vulnerable in our population (our mental health unit),” the employee wrote.

“Word of the incident has inevitably traveled throughout the facility, causing much concern amongst both inmates and staff,” the employee said. “It demonstrated the state’s willingness to put the most vulnerable of our population in harm’s way, by locking them in a cell with a proven predator, with zero accountability or repercussions for the perpetrator.”

Among the inmates transferred to the women’s facility is Donna Perry, formerly known as Douglas Perry, who was convicted for killing three sex workers. Before being charged, Perryreportedly went to Thailandfor gender reassignment surgery. Prosecutors during the trial claimed that Perry had undergone the surgery to avoid suspicion for the killings.

Also recently transferred in was Hobby Bingham, now known as Princess Zoee Marie Andromeda Love, whowas convictedfor having sex with a 12-year-old girl. Bingham is alleged by the anonymous employee to have had sex with a female inmate at the women’s facility.

Continues: mynorthwest.com/2666243/doc-washington-correctional-center-women-men-transfer/

Back in the UK, we had the notorious Karen White.
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life

and we have now had a judicial review (brought by a woman raped in prison) that agreed that the presence of rapists in their prison was distressing to women, but said it was for parliament to sort out.

I wonder if your friend believes that female prisoners should be forced to share cells and showers with a stranger with abpenis? I hope they would say no.
Laws have to cover everyone and all eventualities.
Women are not expendable j, just because some male people are unhappy with who they are.

[quote Cascascascas]@PurgatoryOfPotholes

I agree with better diagnosis but I don’t agree that these odd cases make good law.

My friend is a woman. She always felt like that and had the guts to be her.

Why should bad people penalise her?[/quote]
Do you believe that a person with a penis should be jailed in a female prison if they identify as a women.

What if they have breasts

What if they feel that they pass as a woman

What if they have 'lived as' a woman for 20 years?

Over 90% of male to female transitioners keep their penis

Your friend needs to be protected if she were jailed, but women aren't support humans. Trans women shouldn't be in female prisons to lower their risk when it increases the risk to women. 3rd spaces sound sensible to ensure their protection from male violence

I was talking to DP the other week about male violence and what it’s like to be a woman.
The topic started because I was reading an article about the 81 women who have been killed since Sarah Everards death.
I explained to him that when women go on first dates we have to consider our safety. He joked ‘Oh, did you think I’d kill you?’ I answered very seriously ‘Well you have the physical strength to kill me, I don’t have the physical strength to kill you. Women are physically weaker and it’s something we have to accept’ I don’t think he’s considered it from that point of view.
Trans women don’t lose that physical strength and no amount of empathy and sympathy will change that fact nor the fact that if our safeguards are removed we are risking our safety

My friend is a woman. She always felt like that and had the guts to be her.

Why should bad people penalise her?

Why should your friend get special privileges? If they have a right to choose which "sex" of prison to go to, why shouldn't we all?

I'm a fellow male. I identify with women and prefer being around women. So why can't I go to a women's prison? I'd much prefer a mainly-female environment too.

Why should I be penalised for a refusal to believe in gendered souls? I refuse to accept that your male friend has any more right to a mainly-female space than I do, or that they are less of a risk to women.

If the state is going to insist on putting males in female spaces, then I think it's probably better if I take one of those place than many of the dodgier men out there. There are bad people out there, you know...

And, maybe, I can help by forcing recognition that these are mixed-sex spaces. A lot of the problems come from organisations creating mixed-sex spaces but trying to pretend they're not.

So I have a trans friend. She is fully post operative. Been living after transition for about 20 years.

You really think she should use the male toilets?

Yes, or campaign for a third space. Female toilets are for female people.

Why if no one is supposed to pay any mind to who is in the toilets with them would it disadvantage an MTF trans person to use a male one? It's just about respect for women and girls.

Why shouldn't men make all males feel comfortable in XY toilets?

Why is it women and children who need to change and learn to ignore what they can clearly see with their eyes?

At what age do we teach children that they can use toilets with mothers and also any man can whenever he would like, but the child must call the man she if referring to him, e.g. "she's next". But out of the toilet and in a queue for ice cream they can then revert to reality and say "he's next"?

In the wider context the fakery falls away, real language exists for the majority and males are visibly different to females.

@NiceGerbil
Reported to WHO exactly? And on what grounds?

Report to other people or authorities, depending on the situation, availability and degree of concern: other people, HR, security, police. On the grounds of suspecting them of violating single sex spaces.

Women judging other women on appearance is wrong. Anti feminist. Gatekeeping 'womanhood'. Oppressive for women who don't measure up to some feminine standard of appearance. Etc etc.

This is question begging. When I see someone who claims to be a woman or who is in a female only space, I don't know if this is true.

The expectation is that women and girls make no assumptions based on looks, clothes, any aspect of physical appearance.

Whose expectation?

It's cruel and transphobic to give any reaction, any hint that you are even thinking ... Erm. That's a bloke.

In other words, "be kind!" - Seriously? Women should set some safety concerns to avoid the possibility of causing offence?

@NecessaryScene
Why should your friend get special privileges? If they have a right to choose which "sex" of prison to go to, why shouldn't we all?

Isn't the most important issue the rights of women?

If particular women prisoners consent to sharing with particular trans women, this can be accommodated in a prison in which all prisoners are trans women or women who have consented to sharing with trans women.

How do you use a moon cup in a stalls situation never mind a universal loo?

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Odd cases was used in the numerical sense.

@DorsVenabili

I am amazed by the level of resentment here.
The level in some people of 1950’s thinking.

Men who assault women are criminals.
Trans women are not.

Maybe we need to have third toilets and all campaign for that or single cubicles for all!

Men who assault women are criminals.
Trans women are not.

Men (whether or not they identify as transwomen) who assault women are criminals.

[quote Cascascascas]@DorsVenabili

I am amazed by the level of resentment here.
The level in some people of 1950’s thinking.

Men who assault women are criminals.
Trans women are not.

Maybe we need to have third toilets and all campaign for that or single cubicles for all![/quote]
Crack on with your campaign for third spaces. Let's see how that goes down on TRA social media 🍿🍿🍿

[quote Cascascascas]@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Odd cases was used in the numerical sense.[/quote]
Can I make a request? If you're interested in numbers.

Google how many men and women there are in prison in the UK.
The Google how many sex offenders in the male estate.

Then take an estimate of how many of those sex offenders would identify as female. Bearing in mind that there will be opportunistic identification as well as sincere.

Then do a little more maths and work out how many would still have a penis.
Then see what proportion of the female estate would then be sex offenders with penises.

I'm willing to best your 'odd cases' hypothesis doesn't add up.

Men who assault women are criminals.
Trans women are not.

What do you mean?
Not men? Not people who assault women? Not criminals?

Approximately 18% of the male prison population are serving time for sex offences.

There are no transmen held in the men's estate.

Of the recorded trans prison population (multiple caveats as to the total trans prison population including those with a GRC not recorded as their actual sex etc) 60 out of 125 are serving time for sex offences. That is 48% of the stats we know.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42221629.amp

98% of perpetrators of rape and sexual assault are male. And bearing in mind that the UK police seem to allow self-id, we cannot be sure that the remaining 2% of rape and sexual assault perpetrators are actually biologically female. Under UK law, rape is a male-only crime involving penetration with a penis but a small number of 'women' are convicted each year.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/natureofsexualassaultbyrapeorpenetrationenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2020#perpetrator-characteristics

[quote Cascascascas]@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Odd cases was used in the numerical sense.[/quote]
"What can be said, however, is that data collected across the prison estate in March/April 2019 recorded the following:

i) There were 163 transgender prisoners, of whom 81 had been convicted of one or more sexual offences.

ii) 129 of those prisoners were allocated to the male estate, 34 to the female estate. Of the 129 in the male estate, 74 had been convicted of one or more sexual offences.

iii) Although no records are kept, the number of transgender prisoners with a GRC is thought to be very low: a single-figure total across the estate as a whole."

www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2021/1746.html

@Gosports

I am fiercely GC, and pro single sex spaces, but when travelling in Asia (can’t remember where - maybe Malaysia) we came across trains where there were carriages just for women. On the same trip, a Muslim man made his wife switch places so she didn’t have to sit next to my husband.

I find it difficult reconciling my reactions to these things - on the one hand, I believe 100% that women should have our own toilets/prisons etc, but I don’t feel we should have to have our own train carriages. I appreciate no one is getting naked in a train carriage, but it just seems unnecessary. Just as a woman shouldn’t feel threatened by sitting next to an unknown male on a plane.

This is exactly my concern. I’m so glad you’ve been able to articulate it, when I’ve struggled.

All the emphasis on women- only spaces really concerns me in some ways. It seems in some ways to be going backwards not forwards. I’ve seen posts recently where people have been insisting that discussion groups on ‘women’s issues’ should be strictly women only. I really worry we are putting these things back out of the mainstream, and going back to a situation where they will only be mentioned in hushed tones, when no men are about. It doesn’t seem that far fetched that at some point, some women are going to insist that, for example, men should not be present at a birth. As was the case in the Tudor period ….

Men who assault women are criminals.
Trans women are not.

Transwomen are not what? Men? Criminals? or Men who assault women?

What are Transwoman who assault women then if they are not criminals?

Don't say there are absolutely no Transwomen anywhere, ever, who assault women or that there are absolutely no Transwomen criminals at all, anywhere, ever as both of those things are patently untrue.

How can we tell which Transwomen are those likely to assault women from those who are not? Is there a special sign?

Why should bad people penalise her?

Why should women be penalised to suit your friend?

Why should women lose single sex spaces and services to suit your friend?

Why should women be used as validation tools, human shields and collateral damage to suit your friend?

What a bizarre extrapolation, Holly. Do tell me what perspective a man can add to a women's group, discussing women's issues, as relevant to women.

I do not attend such a group, but if I did and wanted to extend my own understanding of women's issues, beyond my own lived experience, I wouldn't be looking for a man's opinions. Nor would I feel comfortable sharing some of my own experiences, with a man in the room, whatever his intentions.

Does that mean I would exclude my husband from my private thoughts on this, or any matter? Of course not.

Does this mean that men will routinely be excluded from the births of their children? Why should it? How ridiculous.