14th October 'Nolan Investigates' podcast - Stonewall?

[Helleofabore]

This sounds interesting.

A special ‘Nolan Investigates’ podcast drops tomorrow afternoon on @BBCSounds. An 18 month investigation into the influence of a lobby group on public bodies throughout the UK. More details in the morning

It seems to be about Stonewall.

Anyone know more about it?

There is some chatter about it on Twitter.

twitter.com/stephennolan/status/1448052827088109568?s=21

twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1448205588253618176?s=21

(Tweet from JCJ says:

Okay, at last, here it is.

The BBC Ulster documentary on the influence of Stonewall on public life in the UK.

Many GC women have been interviewed for this.

Let's take the lid off this thing shall we?

@WarriorN

Last tweet (but a few) by Sally Hines on the matter. After only tweeting about KS for a few days.

This is what I hope is my last tweet on what has happened at Sussex. This is not only about Sussex and it’s not just about an individual. The particular academic at Sussex is no worse or no better than certain other academics elsewhere.

(Not last tweet. Don't really get what she's actually trying to say. Probably a lot of academics are transphobes.)

ResistersScot: Just make it your last tweet, Sally. Ever. Go and get some chips.

Those defending stonewall haven't listened.

I had to stop looking at Twitter about it for the rage. The worst thing was many people not only hadn't heard it but were dismissing it as conspiracy theory or baseless claims and moral panic trying to take us back to the days of section 28. The critical thinking is absolutely non-existent and very worrying.

Yep just blocked by someone mentioning section 28.

I now think I'll just quote Marci Bowers at them.

From shrier: abigailshrier.substack.com/p/why-marci-matters

*vaginoplasty expert and gender surgeon Dr. Marci Bowers (a TW) and child psychologist at the UCSF gender clinic, Dr. Erica Anderson, .....

...acknowledged four facts: early puberty blockade can lead to significant surgical complication and also permanent sexual dysfunction; peer and social media influence do seem to play a role in encouraging the current, unprecedented spike in transgender identification by teen girls; and the World Professional Association of Transgender Health (WPATH) – of which both Bowers and Anderson are board members – has been excluding doctors who question current medical protocols to its detriment.*

Most of them weren’t even born when section 28 existed. You can tell when they blarb on about it being about ‘banning LGBT+’ or ‘criminalising LGBT+ People’.

Or in stonewall Language:

vaginoplasty expert and gender surgeon Dr. Marci Bowers says

👏 early puberty blockade can lead to significant surgical complication and also permanent sexual dysfunction;

👏 peer and social media influence do seem to play a role in encouraging the current, unprecedented spike in transgender identification by teen girls;

👏 the World Professional Association of Transgender Health (WPATH) – of which both Bowers and Anderson are board members – has been excluding doctors who question current medical protocols to its detriment.

One thing that struck me was the base plagiarism of it all. The same Stonewall-authored phrases ('be themselves at work' etc) popping up in Scottish and Welsh governments. Which meant that the organisations couldn't answer questions about their policies and wording - because it wasn't their wording and they didn't know what the feck it meant!

The refusal to answer questions was like quizzing a student about an essay they copied.

quizzing a student about an essay they copied.

That's IT!

• Oh no, I've got an Equality Act Policy Statement to write by 9 O'Clock tomorrow morning!

The arguments about the "need" to remove the word mother make no sense at all (no surprises there). Any lesbian couple I know uses two different words (mummy/mama) and are clear about who is the birth mother. In adoption we didn't/don't see a need to remove the word mother. We just add an adjective, so birth mother, biological mother, adoptive mother. There is no circumstance where we can't qualify a noun for clarity. You can't have a baby without a father and a mother being involved. Wishing it was different doesn't make it so.

I was thinking about a parallel situation to this to see what happened and the word “marriage” sprang to mind. Previously “ marriage “ was between a man and a woman. Same sex marriage legislation changed this fact but it was never suggested the word “ marriage “ should be changed presumably to respect existing marriages. What happened instead is that the words “same sex” was added to the word “marriage” and everyone was happy. So we have marriage and same sex marriage to distinguish the two ( if there is a situation where it needed distinguishing- otherwise just “marriage” for both)
Mother as a word hasn’t been given this same respect.

...And some people don't like the word 'marriage' or the concept, all tied up with religion and patriarchy. They prefer to speak of partners, but do not demand the old word is erased.

So team GC. The ONLY thing we can do is to send the podcast to as many people as we possibly can. And literally harass them to listen to it. Because it is going to be the general public better informed which will force those in power to inform themselves. I am sending it far and wide and literally harassing people to listen.

Please do the same xxx

Have just done an AIBU

I've just finished listening. Binge listened in chunks! I've been a lurker and reader here for years, and a worrier at home but I just haven't been brave enough to speak out.

This podcast gives me the means and ability to bring other people to this information. The efforts to be balanced, fair and neutral are clear to hear and the conclusions self evident.

There is just SO MUCH MORE than this though. There are SO MANY episodes you could make. The prison issues, the sports issues, the schools issues, the women's shortlists, single sex provisions in the NHS...etc etc etc.

I hope Nolan's cracking on!

It needs more journalists now to pick up the reigns. Nolan has done a great job and David Thompson's piece was published on the BBC website yesterday. But it will easily die down now unless others bring it to the forefront. People who have been quiet or captured will not enjoy the spotlight. People who have been frightened to speak may have developed a habit of not speaking.

I am with Helen Joyce, who said something like - the best thing you can do, is say what you would have said before this started - in other words, ask questions, argue and push back. (I have paraphrased here).

@Blessex

Have just done an AIBU

here it is

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4376336-Parents-of-teenagers-If-you-haven-t-listened-to-all-episodes-of-this-yet-then-you-are-out-of-touch

Well done @Blessex

I know it is bigger than our kids but I needed a ‘marketing’ way in!

I love graham bell. He’s like my dad. ‘Have you read bla bla bla bla bla’. Err no dad. Ok so…..

@JoodyBlue I agree. But the only way to stop this dying down is to SEND IT OUT.

@3timeslucky

The arguments about the "need" to remove the word mother make no sense at all (no surprises there). Any lesbian couple I know uses two different words (mummy/mama) and are clear about who is the birth mother. In adoption we didn't/don't see a need to remove the word mother. We just add an adjective, so birth mother, biological mother, adoptive mother. There is no circumstance where we can't qualify a noun for clarity. You can't have a baby without a father and a mother being involved. Wishing it was different doesn't make it so.

Useful to join up the dots here for the many situations which this same political lobby has appropriated in the name of inclusion, diversity, progress:

Lobby: We must do this because this issue we don't ourselves have affects these people with this characteristic- (homosexuality, DSD, disability, lesbian parents)

People with that characteristic: hang on, no it doesn't, you're misrepresenting us, this isn't an issue really and we have many much more serious ones we'd like you to help with if you wanted to help, and it feels a bit like being used -

Lobby: silence, you're being homophobic/heteronormative/cisheteronormative/xyzphobic and should not be allowed to speak.

Hence the situation where trans people have been taken to court by a non trans person for transphobia, and homosexual people are being called homophobic by straight people. It has been a very common strategy to borrow a useful appearance and narrative of inclusion while actively silencing, talking over and misrepresenting others, and at times being really quite unpleasant to those who will not co operate in the way requested and who insist on speaking for themselves.

Which if you were very cynical, you might wonder was more to do with furthering the aims and marketing appearance of the political lobby than any genuine care for inclusion and 'lived experience' and a lot of the other words so frequently scattered around.

@Blessex - indeed and @Artichokeleaves - yes. Also the term transmisogynistic, which included in my ex-company's inclusion toolkit was the final straw for me.

Protest Friday 22nd October #ComeOutOfStonewall

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4376412-Come-out-of-Stonewall-Protest-Friday-22nd-October?watched=1

@JoodyBlue transmisogynistic

Have heard it all now!

Just sent podcasts to headmaster of my kids school, head of diversity (big London ad agency), CEO (massive global company), my MP and his wife.

@3timeslucky

The arguments about the "need" to remove the word mother make no sense at all (no surprises there). Any lesbian couple I know uses two different words (mummy/mama) and are clear about who is the birth mother. In adoption we didn't/don't see a need to remove the word mother. We just add an adjective, so birth mother, biological mother, adoptive mother. There is no circumstance where we can't qualify a noun for clarity. You can't have a baby without a father and a mother being involved. Wishing it was different doesn't make it so.

I couldn't understand this either, it's so ridiculous. And I never understood what they were trying to achieve by completely changing or taking out very obvious words to describe things which we all know and use.

It all fell into place when I heard Helen Joyce speak about Queer Theory. Excuse my bad paraphrasing, but QT puts huge emphasis on language, because if you insist that things are what they are not, if you insist that male people can become female and female can be male, and what someone says about themselves must be believed - then you must control language. QT sees this as the way to remake the world, they believe that the words are the reality, and that reality must be shoe-horned into the words.

Of course, in order to make this work, you need to rigidly control what people are allowed to say. Totalitarian much?

Anyway, its weirdly fascinating and horrifying, if only that seemingly educated and rational people appear to be going along with it.

The other reason behind this, is the thing we are not allowed to talk about on this site. Which very much drives this change of language, so that certain people can co-opt somethings not meant for them for certain saucy reasons.

Which is why I get the rage when people say 'oh but it's only a few words it doesn't matter' because they either don't know or don't care what's behind it.

@Scoutingformygirls

I've just finished listening. Binge listened in chunks! I've been a lurker and reader here for years, and a worrier at home but I just haven't been brave enough to speak out.

This podcast gives me the means and ability to bring other people to this information. The efforts to be balanced, fair and neutral are clear to hear and the conclusions self evident.

There is just SO MUCH MORE than this though. There are SO MANY episodes you could make. The prison issues, the sports issues, the schools issues, the women's shortlists, single sex provisions in the NHS...etc etc etc.

I hope Nolan's cracking on!

Yes, definitely. There are so many other layers to this they could have added. But it was still brilliant to hear.

I emailed them yesterday to say thanks for all the work they put in.