Telegraph - Women prisoners who call transgender inmates ‘he’ or ‘him’ face extra jail time

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www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/10/08/women-prisoners-call-transgender-inmates-face-extra-jail-time/

This is an utterly disgraceful abomination of human rights. First they put male rapists and murderers in women's prisons then the women are punished if they won't go along with the despicable pretence.

Extract

Women prisoners who call transgender inmates by the wrong pronoun could face extra time in jail under equality rules, says a justice minister.

Female inmates who deliberately call a transgender woman “he” or “him” could be punished under rules barring “threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour”.

The penalties will be decided by an independent adjudicator, a visiting judge, who has the power to impose additional days if they feel the abuse merits such a punishment.

The disclosure comes amid a growing debate over the policy of holding male-to-female transgender prisoners in women’s jails.

This summer, the High Court rejected a legal challenge to prevent transgender inmates with convictions for sexual or violent offences against women being imprisoned alongside other women.

In 2019, there were 34 transgender women who were still legally male detained at the 12 women’s prisons in England and Wales.

We can't post archive links now but the full article is out there if anyone wants to look.

Since the 1980s? Bloody hell.

I just checked GRCs were introduced 2004.

Initially I thought maybe it came with that. But decades before? This is even earlier than the NHS mixed gender wards lies in the early 2000s I think it was. And if GRC then birth cert changed. Still shouldn't be there but that at least would have explained it.

80s?????!!!

Jesus. Going to have a dig around. I've never heard this before. See what I can find in terms of docs etc...

Yes. Ifwe don’t we get a punishment.

Can't find anything at the moment.

Might have another look in a bit.

With no GRC back then, this is new info.

If a man hasn’t had gender reassignment surgery I don’t care what he identifies as, he has no place in a womens’ prison or any other protected space. Is it going to take someone getting hurt or worse, for this to sink in ? As for misgendering - I recently watched a video on YouTube where someone had gone to great lengths to appear as gender neutral. I genuinely didn’t know whether the person was a man or a woman. On paying for something in a shop they were asked for identification and produced a driving license. This person then caused a huge and very unpleasant scene when the unfortunate employee addressed them by the gender stated on the driving license. I give up. The world has gone mad.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Common persisting effects of significant head injury include impairments in information processing and emotional changes associated with impulsivity, irritability and egocentricity.

thanks. that is helpful. but unpleasant reading. I have been punched in the head/ had stuff bounce off my skull/banged head in a dv induced fall several times. I can not recall the exact number of times... which is why I was thinking of people who had been punched in the head and could not remember things like pronouns. (days of the fucking wekk, children's appointments, general information)

Well, that settles it, doesn't it.

Yes. It does.

BlackeyedSusan

I'm starting to wonder if-

Loads of things like prisons hosps etc.

Have had informal policies of putting TW in female facilities based on a case by case risk to TW basis.

Before all this new gender stuff kicked off the numbers were low.

If they got a male in who was I dunno. Full time 'presenting as woman', with or without surgery.

I wonder if they thought they'll be better off with women.

And so it's been going on much longer than realised.

That would explain a fair few things to me anyway. In terms of. The assumption was that this was all single sex and changes were lobbied for in the last couple decades and quietly put in place. If those in those areas all the way through chain had been doing this for years anyway. Then for me it's easier to see how we got here.

FOIs to police forces. The ones that replied said they had no records to say when recording sex was replaced with gender. Or where the change in process came from.

I'm starting to think it's being going on for years. Because I mean the idea of thinking about impacts on women was no more likely then, than now. And numbers would have been low. And why would anyone have thought to ask? Back then.

Yes they have as far as I know, and TRAs will delight in telling you that when you talk about female spaces. But it was more the old school transsexual types before, not all the various males who expect special treatment now.

The research into head injuries in women who are victims of male violence esp DV has been getting more prominent for a while now. Loads of DV victims have brain injuries for this reason. The consequences in terms of cognitive function and behaviour then work against them through the criminal justice system. I read in court that often jury judge take them as unreliable, vague. I'm sure similar issues with the police.

The whole basis for risking all the unintended consequences of the GRA 2004 was that it would only ever apply to about 5k people of both sexes.

True.

But the gra was years after the 80s.

Yes, but the GRA was about birth certificates and gay marriage. It was presumed that transsexuals already "lived as women" including using women's spaces etc, which is why it was a stipulation to get one that you must do so.

I don't think it was ever considered important that women might object and should be asked for their consent.

So, men must get their way, and women must play or pay.

Yes and there were strong arguments against it at the time.

In the end it's a bad idea to alter fundamental docs retrospectively at all. Their estimate of 5k was bang on and the option was I imagine known about and taken by those who were dysphoric etc.

This was all quite niche knowledge and known mainly by those it directly affected.

TransGender just leapfrogged that and steamed on with capitulation as standard at such speed. Not just govt. Loads of businesses, entertainment venues also changing things with zero thinking it seems. About women/ girls / risk etc.

Businessess with primarily female customer base changing things. I mean that's just ridiculous, no thought to pissing off their customers?

I just find it baffling. Just a sudden huge reminder that women and girls just aren't important. Not even given a thought when doing what some lobby group or person on twitter has told them to do.

I don't care if they have had gender reassignment surgery or not because all that means that they're a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Zero Tolerance for all this bollocks.

The fact that the govt/ prison service put rapists with women in the first place- a thing that any person on the street would tell them was obviously totally wrong, unthinkably wrong, and an obvious massive risk to the women.

And then Karen white and they didn't say. Christ awful. Top priority need to have a new strategy to protect women. This was a serious incident/ error . Apologies to all women in prison. Never happen again. And act fast to put trans prisoners elsewhere. Not with the general male or female population.
But nope. Carry on. And then judge confirms it's fine even though acknowledges women will be harmed!

This whole thing. All of it. Is past misogny. In the literal hate sense.

We're not important enough to feel strongly about. We're less than that. Irrelevant, unimportant, not worth thinking about at all.

Surgery or not changes nothing for me, not now. Males should not be in anything sex segregated.

In this the current movement has fucked over transsexuals totally.

And transsexuals who challenge them are hated as much as women who say no. Truscum. Says a lot that.

Does misgendering someone carry a jail sentence now? If not then why should inmates be punished differently to the rest of the population?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4372515-No-Freedom-of-Speech-for-Women-in-Prison

Prof Michael Biggs has written on the changing criteria that has enabled prisoners of the male sex to be housed in the female prison estate:

osf.io/preprints/socarxiv/43f2t/

There's a summary on our website here:

kpssinfo.org/history-of-males-in-womens-prisons/

@NiceGerbil

Surgery or not changes nothing for me, not now. Males should not be in anything sex segregated.

In this the current movement has fucked over transsexuals totally.

And transsexuals who challenge them are hated as much as women who say no. Truscum. Says a lot that.

This. A person who has lost their penis for whatever reason obviously does not stop being male.

I am all for differentiated male provision for male people who have transitioned, and that will need to be negotiated with said male people as to what best meets the needs of all including transsexual male people who have had full surgery.

Female single sex provision is for female people only. It can only fully and properly meet the needs inclusive of all female people if male people are not present. Male people do not matter more than female ones.

@Hamtonn

Does misgendering someone carry a jail sentence now? If not then why should inmates be punished differently to the rest of the population?

I wondered this. If it isn’t unlawful outside the walls of a prison, then why is it different for the prison population ? Methinks solicitors will be the only ones to profit from this when inmates starting appealing this shit.

Excellent question @Hamtonn