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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Telegraph - Women prisoners who call transgender inmates ‘he’ or ‘him’ face extra jail time

218 replies

OvaHere · 08/10/2021 23:43

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/10/08/women-prisoners-call-transgender-inmates-face-extra-jail-time/

This is an utterly disgraceful abomination of human rights. First they put male rapists and murderers in women's prisons then the women are punished if they won't go along with the despicable pretence.

Extract

Women prisoners who call transgender inmates by the wrong pronoun could face extra time in jail under equality rules, says a justice minister.

Female inmates who deliberately call a transgender woman “he” or “him” could be punished under rules barring “threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour”.

The penalties will be decided by an independent adjudicator, a visiting judge, who has the power to impose additional days if they feel the abuse merits such a punishment.

The disclosure comes amid a growing debate over the policy of holding male-to-female transgender prisoners in women’s jails.

This summer, the High Court rejected a legal challenge to prevent transgender inmates with convictions for sexual or violent offences against women being imprisoned alongside other women.

In 2019, there were 34 transgender women who were still legally male detained at the 12 women’s prisons in England and Wales.

We can't post archive links now but the full article is out there if anyone wants to look.

OP posts:
WomaninBoots · 10/10/2021 14:00

Honestly if you think a woman correctly sexing a male in a prison setting is bullying, even if she appears like a bully whilst doing so, then you are having a failure of imagination with respect to how people with personality disorder orchestrate the world around them. And the males being put in women's prison are highly likely to have disordered personalities. Or at least strongly display those behaviour patterns.

It's like that link I saw the other day where when men murder women they live with it is after years of the man abusing the woman... and when women murder the men they live with... it us after years of the man abusing the woman.

I can absolutely imagine being in prison, unable to escape, stressed to fuck by being in prison and then the added torment of some male being thrown into the mix and expecting everyone to play make-believe that he's a woman... I can absolutely imagine just fucking snapping under that strain and getting my bully on. It's completely provoking a reaction then punishing for it.

Inhumane treatment of female prisoners for the sake of male... what? "Comfort".

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 10/10/2021 15:04

@Artichokeleaves

This is a profoundly woman-hating and woman-blaming culture we live in. Women in prison are being treated with contempt, with prejudice, with a denial of their human rights....And women are told we’re the bad guys.

You may want to check out another thread where women are being told that until they give in, nothing will get better. And that will be their fault.

And they're only not co operating because they 'don't like trans people'. Not because they have needs or real issues or anything, or any real reasons, because obviously women's lives don't ever revolve around anything other than male people.

Words fail. I struggle daily to get my head around this absolute farce.

Which thread is that, Artichoke?

Sounds all too familiar of course. Women as adjuncts to male people, bit parts in male lives; never the focus of our own existence.

Me too, re the daily struggle. I never can quite get my head around the enormity and egregiousness of it all, and the sheer absurdity and irrationality, however much I try to process it.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 10/10/2021 15:06

Great post, WomaninBoots.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/10/2021 15:19

Thanks, you’re right. Having googled, Sally St Claire was the character.

It was a piece of preposterous gaslighting.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/10/2021 15:30

Forcing women to adhere to an ideology that requires compelled speech and repeated lies under threat of punishment is bullying.

I don't see why bullying (persistent targeting using whatever upsets or scares the target loads) should have ONE exception written IN.

It already does. The sex of a male in a female prison is relevant 24/7. It's the most relevant thing about them. These women must be forced to pretend they agree with the ideology that makes them subordinate.

This! Brilliant post from Datun

NiceGerbil · 10/10/2021 16:29

@Artichokeleaves

And conversely a TW following a woman around demanding "am I a woman" to harass and cause distress is bullying and should be stopped.

Definitely this ^^

The common factor is the intent to harass and cause distress.

Which is bullying.

Which policies and practice already exist to manage perfectly well.

Pronouns should not be anything special or different in their own right.

(Does the TW get their sentence added to for bullying? Is the equality there? What about sentences extended for sexual assault of women?)

The bullying policy has not changed and applies to everyone.
TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 10/10/2021 17:27

It’s not about whether the bullying policy has changed, NiceGerbil. It’s about whether women will be deemed to be bullying simply on the basis of using correct sex pronouns - because the policy proceeds from a place of accepting genderist ideology as a guide to acceptable behaviour.

I get the impression they will be, unless it’s accidental, even if there is no intent to bully at all. Even if they are just exercising their right to freedom of speech and of conscience. Even if they are merely standing up for themselves against the monumental, colossal bullying that they themselves are experiencing as a result of being housed with male prisoners and obliged to pretend they’re female.

The statement from FDJ to KPSS would suggest that women are being punished for non compliance with the rules about misgendering, regardless of whether they are actively trying to bully these male prisoners, or whether they even have the power to bully them.

The reality such as we hear about it is a very long way from the fictional scenario in Hollyoaks where the nasty women are bullying the vulnerable biologically male trans person.

Rather it’s the other way around - male prisoners demanding to be able to expose themselves in the showers with women, male prisoners assaulting women, that male prisoner in Scotland who won the Miss Fitness competition thanks to his male physiology and rubbed the women’s faces in his victory, and very much enjoyed the perks he won as a result.

It reads to me as if males are bullying females with no consequences; while females who stand up for themselves against bullying are given extra time. The bullying policy clearly does not apply equally to everyone, as far as we can understand the situation with the limited information available, and the way it is interpreted is massively in the favour of male people, and to the detriment of female people.

This absolutely should be reported on and a lot of noise made about it. This does not seem to be a bullying policy that is even handed, fair, and applies to everyone the same way; this seems to be being applied in a deeply discriminatory way that uses genderist ideology as if it were a neutral starting point, instead of a highly contested belief system that many of us see as deeply misogynistic.

It’s policy written by and for male people, and sod female people.

This idea that it is “uncivil” to acknowledge that male people are male is toxic and profoundly anti-feminist, IMO. I think it’s crucial women have the right to recognise and name male people as male. Crucial. So much other damage proceeds from accepting this first denial of reality, this first act of coercive control. We have to stand up to it.

Always worth posting this again in case anyone isn’t already familiar with Barracker’s superb piece on pronouns:

fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 10/10/2021 17:31

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Thanks, you’re right. Having googled, Sally St Claire was the character.

It was a piece of preposterous gaslighting.

It really was. And the inclusion of the character seems to have been a propaganda exercise: in the words of the actor who plays Sally St Claire, we're helping to change hearts and minds from people's living rooms.

There’s a wiki page on the character which is quite interesting:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally_St._Claire

NiceGerbil · 11/10/2021 01:45

My read of it was it was manufactured. Not a statement.

Someone sprung the question unexpectedly.

I've tried googling as can't see full telegraph article. I found one with excerpts and posted upthread to say is this in the article so I know it's right one but don't think anyone replied.

So I don't have much to go on does anyone have archive link to telegraph piece? I don't know how to get that.

Anyway. I read this-

'Asked about the policy on the words allowed for transgender inmates, Lord Wolfson, the justice minister, said: “Incidents where a prisoner uses incorrect pronouns for another prisoner will be considered on a case-by-case basis, in line with the prisoner discipline procedures policy and the prison rules'

And then went on to talk about bullying policy.

I think it was deliberate to chuck that out of the blue and see if what came back could mean a good headline etc.

I'll try looking for full article again.

NiceGerbil · 11/10/2021 01:48

Been googling can't find how to see non paywall article.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 11/10/2021 02:31

@NiceGerbil

Been googling can't find how to see non paywall article.
Here

insidetime.org/women-face-punishment-for-using-wrong-pronouns/

NiceGerbil · 11/10/2021 02:55

Is that the whole telegraph article?

It's different in at least one really major way from what I found.

NiceGerbil · 11/10/2021 03:05

Aha!

From the horses mouth:

1st question related to Forstater ruling

questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2021-07-06/HL1761

2nd question as follow up is what the telegraph is reporting on. I'm pretty sure.

questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2021-09-13/HL2647

CBUK2K · 11/10/2021 07:55

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Datun · 11/10/2021 08:06

It really was. And the inclusion of the character seems to have been a propaganda exercise: in the words of the actor who plays Sally St Claire, we're helping to change hearts and minds from people's living rooms

Its all so tactical.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/10/2021 08:14

Its all so tactical.

YY.

EyesOpening · 11/10/2021 10:01

A white group doesnt get to tell a BAME person they should put up with language that they find unacceptable, even then the white group thinks that language is fine.

Except this more like Rachel Dolezal telling black people they have to say she is black

EyesOpening · 11/10/2021 10:21

There was a comment which I now can’t find, that reminded me of something wrt misgendering. You cannot misgender someone yet then being called she/her is used in Scotland to obtain a GRC, so you aren’t allowed to not say it then it’s used as evidence to corroborate the thing you don’t believe!

Artichokeleaves · 11/10/2021 12:29

@CBUK2K

Do feminists not see the see the irony that they have been pushing identity politics for decades are now unhappy because the shoe is on the other foot.
Oh look.

Another reminder that if women had just stayed in their box, accepted their subordinate destiny in life and not been silly girls about wanting equality, this wouldn't have happened.

Bad girls. You deserve this.

HeddaAga · 11/10/2021 19:22

I keep coming back to this because it's such an outrage. One of the most toxic aspects of this situation is that we must sign up to the pretence that vulnerable, incarcerated women would be punching down if they misgender a male born offender who wants to be called she/her (many of whom have been convicted of sexual offences against women and children), and not acknowledge that it is CLEARLY the other way around.

JayAlfredPrufrock · 11/10/2021 21:32

Since 1980 ? Gosh.

timeisnotaline · 11/10/2021 21:44

@CBUK2K

Do feminists not see the see the irony that they have been pushing identity politics for decades are now unhappy because the shoe is on the other foot.
Identity politics?? Like the right to have a job and be paid for it? The right to have women’s bathrooms and womens wards?! Why don’t you go over and tell that to the Irish who also had to go through campaigning to be treated like people. Shout it in the streets.
Reptar · 11/10/2021 22:23

''Being held in a mixed sex institution is not a normal consequence of lawful detention. Neither is facing an increased risk of both sexual assault and sexual assault by a male.''

This situation is not a consequense of feminism or 'identity politics', and its not something to crow over - unless you think rape in prison is funny.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 11/10/2021 22:38

I’ve been ‘doing’ prisons for a while now and although much of what she told me was not a surprise, it was still shocking and upsetting. She told me about the sexual assaults she had both experienced and witnessed. She reported that sexually aggressive and physically threatening behaviour is run-of-the-mill and simply to be expected.

She said that all bar one of the male prisoners she had encountered, who were so much bigger and stronger than she, had been convicted of sexual offences. She told me that almost all retained their male genitalia: she knew that they did because they often liked to show them off, either by wearing tight clothing or by moving the shower curtain to one side when showering.

I knew this already, but it’s different hearing it first hand from a woman sitting across the table from you. Words on a page or numbers and percentages in a report are no substitute for hearing a woman describe what has happened to her and what she has witnessed happen to others. However, what shocked me the most was when she told me in a completely matter-of-fact voice, we have to call them ‘she’ and use their female names and if we don’t we get a punishment. Even the ones who are sexual offenders?! Yes. Even the ones who show off their penises in the shower with you?! Yes.If we don’t we get a punishment

From HermioneWeasley's link.

Well, that settles it, doesn't it.

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